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Old 01-08-2019, 11:57 PM
 
2,226 posts, read 3,040,731 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
Shed like is subjective and means little in this context. Poor quality doesn't hold much weight either -why buy the best window latches, when cheaper ones will suffice?

Insulation is an issue of houses built up to around the 1990s - back in your good old days. Unfinished houses? - could just be that these Germans aren't used to different design styles/architecture, New houses won't get sign off unless they're finished.

Australia is effectively an extension of NZ, and one with warmer weather. Being bigger and wealthier, it does offer more opportunity, no surprises there. People I know that have moved there, are trading one comfortable lifestyle, for another.

Second world economy isn't relevant -that equates to quality of life, and there is nothing to suggest NZ belongs in some second tear quality of life index. Geography is a valid reason - you seriously think Luxembourg or Denmark.would be the country it is, if it was not in a cluster of other wealthy countries?

The dole isn't a lifestyle option, and there is always work available.

I don't know any one on welfare because some bank swindled their money.. People need to do their research with regards to finance companies -the last crisis will hopefully make people more diligent. Undersupply is the main issue with housing costs, I don't see a bubble, just a bit of retraction. People do get ahead in this era of contract work, but it's not typically those from welfare backgrounds - many of those people have been ruined by the system.
Well built with desired aesthetics and good quality finish remains just that. A lot depends on the market and what the general public will accept. Quality is quality. Pointless arguing it as something other, imo.


NZ, is a country that has seen a fall in living standards over the decades, to which emigration figures will point to the 'run' on leavers.
Obviously, far from only 'disadvantaged' residents leaving, as Australia tightened up on welfare for New Zealanders, those without the high skills were likely to be less attracted to leave, unless young.


Again, a country that has 10% of its population abroad, is highly indicative of getting something seriously wrong. Ireland being the only other western country that I can think of with such figures.
Certainly is suggestive of belonging to some second tier world country.


Why do you point towards Luxemburg and Denmark? Obviously both countries are more geography advantaged, Denmark probably being the closet to NZ in Europe, being a primary agricultural country , but rich one. They have reduced their welfare there as well but still very good if compared to NZ model.

The thing is NZ was not always in such a sorry state. Decades of neo liberalism has failed it miserably. Poor wages, over inflated house prices that I wonder how many can afford, a crime problem beyond reasonable expectations for a low populated country, the 'magic' of that philosophy has certainly not worked in NZ.


I think you mean the dole shouldn't be a lifestyle option. Well it wouldn't be in NZ or Australia where close to impossible to survive on let alone be a 'lifestyle' option. Such dinosaur talk was stable in the eighties when the ideological push by the since proved flawed, neo liberals was seeking to become mainstream policy, with part of that being crushing the welfare system as was in place then.
The inability to raise people beyond basic sustainability (don't starve perhaps but little else) due to ideological posturing being of course the real reason of growing inequality and all that comes with that.
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:05 AM
 
923 posts, read 571,420 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
Shed like is subjective and means little in this context. Poor quality doesn't hold much weight either -why buy the best window latches, when cheaper ones will suffice?

Insulation is an issue of houses built up to around the 1990s - back in your good old days. Unfinished houses? - could just be that these Germans aren't used to different design styles/architecture, New houses won't get sign off unless they're finished.
Europeans tend to build pretty small dwellings as well, so builders seeking to increase their profit margin probably focus on up-selling fittings and fixtures rather than extra space, even if those upmarket fittings don't really add to liveability. https://www.elledecor.com/life-cultu...und-the-world/ I've seen photos of European houses with metal roller shutters actually built into the brickwork rather than externally fixed like you find in Aus, which may or may not look "better" depending on your taste. I suspect though, it just adds to the cost of construction, repairs and maintenance, and renders changing to another form of window shade prohibitively expensive.

I personally like the semi-industrial design theme prevalent in most modern Australian apartment buildings and to a lesser extent in detached housing. Some may see it as "unfinished", but that's just the value judgement of those who prefer a more old fashioned style.

Last edited by Bakery Hill; 01-09-2019 at 12:22 AM..
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:10 AM
 
2,226 posts, read 3,040,731 times
Reputation: 1320
We actually had visitors from Germany, a little over a week ago, he a very successful business owner that exports worldwide .
Even such a man, and note we do not share the same political stance on a range of measures, but full agreement on the necessary government intervention on training the nations youth to the highest possible level, a medical system, free and open to all citizens the highest possible level that a civilised and rich nation should offer its citizens, as well as a guaranteed retirement standard not at the whim of the share market but contributed throughout working life.


This man does in no way call himself a socialist. He calls himself a pragmatist. His view, a nation to be strong, requires the very best in education, people need to know they will be cared for if sick and old age should be worry free at least towards finance. People will thus work and spend and keep things ticking over overall in the economy at large.
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Old 01-09-2019, 03:17 AM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
16,441 posts, read 12,857,613 times
Reputation: 5215
Quote:
Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
Well built with desired aesthetics and good quality finish remains just that. A lot depends on the market and what the general public will accept. Quality is quality. Pointless arguing it as something other, imo.

NZ, is a country that has seen a fall in living standards over the decades, to which emigration figures will point to the 'run' on leavers. Obviously, far from only 'disadvantaged' residents leaving, as Australia tightened up on welfare for New Zealanders, those without the high skills were likely to be less attracted to leave, unless young.


Again, a country that has 10% of its population abroad, is highly indicative of getting something seriously wrong. Ireland being the only other western country that I can think of with such figures.
Certainly is suggestive of belonging to some second tier world country.


Why do you point towards Luxemburg and Denmark? Obviously both countries are more geography advantaged, Denmark probably being the closet to NZ in Europe, being a primary agricultural country , but rich one. They have reduced their welfare there as well but still very good if compared to NZ model.

The thing is NZ was not always in such a sorry state. Decades of neo liberalism has failed it miserably. Poor wages, over inflated house prices that I wonder how many can afford, a crime problem beyond reasonable expectations for a low populated country, the 'magic' of that philosophy has certainly not worked in NZ.


I think you mean the dole shouldn't be a lifestyle option. Well it wouldn't be in NZ or Australia where close to impossible to survive on let alone be a 'lifestyle' option. Such dinosaur talk was stable in the eighties when the ideological push by the since proved flawed, neo liberals was seeking to become mainstream policy, with part of that being crushing the welfare system as was in place then.
The inability to raise people beyond basic sustainability (don't starve perhaps but little else) due to ideological posturing being of course the real reason of growing inequality and all that comes with that.


I think you interpret kiwis in Australia wrongly - Australia is practically an extension of NZ -people I know aren't running from anything, they're taking advantages of the opportunities available, it's not disadvantaged people leaving, it's typically people who already have jobs, or significant savings. I don't accept here has been a fall in livings standards, but a rise in living standards.

I don't see 10% of the population living in Australia as an issue myself. I've lived there for a number of years and will be returning to work there shortly. What Aussie offers me is difference and lifestyles not as readily available here. Ireland is another small island nation living next to a bigger neighbour with more opportunities - so no surprises there.


I don't see NZ as being in a sorry state, or somehow failed.Talking about neo - liberalism disguises the core of the NZ's paradigm , which was an economy built around being a well rewarded food basket for Britain and subsequently turning government into a mechanism for servicing all of that -that mechanism wasn't what the country needed, when the country suddenly had to stand alone.

The dole was a lifestyle in the 80s, and there are still plenty of people playing the system even now. The education system and economy offers plenty of potential to rise above basic sustainability, but the people falling to do so, are more liking to be those who have been the recipients of welfare. I don't have a problem with inequality in first world countries,and don't see it as an issue - living in poverty is the issue, not how wealthy another person is.
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Old 01-09-2019, 03:31 AM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
16,441 posts, read 12,857,613 times
Reputation: 5215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakery Hill View Post
Europeans tend to build pretty small dwellings as well, so builders seeking to increase their profit margin probably focus on up-selling fittings and fixtures rather than extra space, even if those upmarket fittings don't really add to liveability. https://www.elledecor.com/life-cultu...und-the-world/ I've seen photos of European houses with metal roller shutters actually built into the brickwork rather than externally fixed like you find in Aus, which may or may not look "better" depending on your taste. I suspect though, it just adds to the cost of construction, repairs and maintenance, and renders changing to another form of window shade prohibitively expensive.

I personally like the semi-industrial design theme prevalent in most modern Australian apartment buildings and to a lesser extent in detached housing. Some may see it as "unfinished", but that's just the value judgement of those who prefer a more old fashioned style.
I agree, I have plenty of experience in building, have dealt with numerous Europeans, and they often seemed to have an odd focus on the little things that didn't seem that important. For those who get involved there's often a growing understanding of why things are done in a certain way, and different methods used.

I like a mixture of styles - love a good California bungalow, or colonial villa, but equally like a lot of more contemporary designs. Cookie cutter isn't really my style, but I can't really fault them as houses.
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Old 01-09-2019, 03:37 AM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
16,441 posts, read 12,857,613 times
Reputation: 5215
Quote:
Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
We actually had visitors from Germany, a little over a week ago, he a very successful business owner that exports worldwide .
Even such a man, and note we do not share the same political stance on a range of measures, but full agreement on the necessary government intervention on training the nations youth to the highest possible level, a medical system, free and open to all citizens the highest possible level that a civilised and rich nation should offer its citizens, as well as a guaranteed retirement standard not at the whim of the share market but contributed throughout working life.


This man does in no way call himself a socialist. He calls himself a pragmatist. His view, a nation to be strong, requires the very best in education, people need to know they will be cared for if sick and old age should be worry free at least towards finance. People will thus work and spend and keep things ticking over overall in the economy at large.
Sounds like me, but I've come to the opinion that the unemployed are their own biggest enemy, and those who make too many excuses for them, are collaborators.
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Old 01-09-2019, 07:37 AM
 
2,226 posts, read 3,040,731 times
Reputation: 1320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
I think you interpret kiwis in Australia wrongly - Australia is practically an extension of NZ -people I know aren't running from anything, they're taking advantages of the opportunities available, it's not disadvantaged people leaving, it's typically people who already have jobs, or significant savings. I don't accept here has been a fall in livings standards, but a rise in living standards.

I don't see 10% of the population living in Australia as an issue myself. I've lived there for a number of years and will be returning to work there shortly. What Aussie offers me is difference and lifestyles not as readily available here. Ireland is another small island nation living next to a bigger neighbour with more opportunities - so no surprises there.


I don't see NZ as being in a sorry state, or somehow failed.Talking about neo - liberalism disguises the core of the NZ's paradigm , which was an economy built around being a well rewarded food basket for Britain and subsequently turning government into a mechanism for servicing all of that -that mechanism wasn't what the country needed, when the country suddenly had to stand alone.

The dole was a lifestyle in the 80s, and there are still plenty of people playing the system even now. The education system and economy offers plenty of potential to rise above basic sustainability, but the people falling to do so, are more liking to be those who have been the recipients of welfare. I don't have a problem with inequality in first world countries,and don't see it as an issue - living in poverty is the issue, not how wealthy another person is.
No don't see Kiwi's in Australia wrongly. New Zealanders may be the closest in cultural terms to Australians, but still different. Akin to the huge Irish population, which has long had the same access to UK, as Kiwi's to Australia. Or for that matter the one million Portuguese living in France, or the many Germans and French in Switzerland. A lot of similarities but not the same nor necessary accepted as the same.
Hence welfare is denied creating hardship to numerous New Zealanders. Even in time of crisis, one woman I was made aware of suffered a serious mental health episode and was being charged for the facility she found herself in, something Aussies would have had free.


No it is not 10% of the population in Australia, that is world wide. Obviously Australia is the prime place, due to locality, like Irish going to England.


Such a figure is suggestive of a sorrow state, however you want to read it. When a country faces economic meltdown, folk who can, often leave.
There has been some turn around in recent year or so, with increased numbers returning post mining boom in OZ, and less venturing to Australia.


Who cares if the dole was a 'way of life' back in the eighties for a few hippy types and non materialists.
That money would have been spent within the community. Definitely not shipped off shore to some tax free destination, that doesn't appear to bother you in the slightest.


No it doesn't. New Zealand , offers low pay, in an expensive country. (for many) housing like Australia, way over inflated, creating a culture around poverty as a result for too many .


Growing inequality due to ideological measures in place have certainly come at a price. Hence a society as found in Scandinavia, where the distribution of wealth between the top to the bottom is far less than found in Anglo Saxon societies and generally approved off by the majority of those populations.
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Old 01-09-2019, 07:40 AM
 
2,226 posts, read 3,040,731 times
Reputation: 1320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
I agree, I have plenty of experience in building, have dealt with numerous Europeans, and they often seemed to have an odd focus on the little things that didn't seem that important. For those who get involved there's often a growing understanding of why things are done in a certain way, and different methods used.

I like a mixture of styles - love a good California bungalow, or colonial villa, but equally like a lot of more contemporary designs. Cookie cutter isn't really my style, but I can't really fault them as houses.
No a good solid house built to last, with the latest finishes is but that, Superior in every way.
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Old 01-09-2019, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
16,441 posts, read 12,857,613 times
Reputation: 5215
Quote:
Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
No don't see Kiwi's in Australia wrongly. New Zealanders may be the closest in cultural terms to Australians, but still different. Akin to the huge Irish population, which has long had the same access to UK, as Kiwi's to Australia. Or for that matter the one million Portuguese living in France, or the many Germans and French in Switzerland. A lot of similarities but not the same nor necessary accepted as the same.
Hence welfare is denied creating hardship to numerous New Zealanders. Even in time of crisis, one woman I was made aware of suffered a serious mental health episode and was being charged for the facility she found herself in, something Aussies would have had free.
None of this relevant -different conversation.

Your anecdote needs some specifics
Quote:


No it is not 10% of the population in Australia, that is world wide. Obviously Australia is the prime place, due to locality, like Irish going to England.


Such a figure is suggestive of a sorrow state, however you want to read it. When a country faces economic meltdown, folk who can, often leave.
There has been some turn around in recent year or so, with increased numbers returning post mining boom in OZ, and less venturing to Australia.
Take Australia out of the equation, and the numbers don't seem that amazing, 150000 perhaps -a lot of those doing an O.E, plenty of new immigrants with a foot in other countries. I've lived in four different countries for longer than 6 months, which supposedly qualifies as living overseas.

There's certainly no sense of some mass exodus or non stop farewell parties


Quote:
Who cares if the dole was a 'way of life' back in the eighties for a few hippy types and non materialists.
That money would have been spent within the community. Definitely not shipped off shore to some tax free destination, that doesn't appear to bother you in the slightest.


No it doesn't. New Zealand , offers low pay, in an expensive country. (for many) housing like Australia, way over inflated, creating a culture around poverty as a result for too many .


Growing inequality due to ideological measures in place have certainly come at a price. Hence a society as found in Scandinavia, where the distribution of wealth between the top to the bottom is far less than found in Anglo Saxon societies and generally approved off by the majority of those populations.
Wasn't just hippies back in the day, it was the forming underclass, getting schooled in dependency.

Housing is inflated due to high land prices and not enough new houses [over regulation], and immigration has become an industry, but that doesn't justify working capable people sitting around waiting for others to to subsidise their lives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
No a good solid house built to last, with the latest finishes is but that, Superior in every way.
Timber framed houses, with lightweight cladding, and roofs, are exactly the sort of houses NZ needs. Expensive window latches, or the last fashionable tap wear mean nothing.

I think we should actually be regressing a little in our housing standards.
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Old 01-09-2019, 02:00 PM
 
6,864 posts, read 7,648,809 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BCC_1 View Post
I'd suggest a failure of social policy if almost half of the population live in government housing.
The French are deeply statist in outlook and philosophy, I don't agree but each to their own, the French reject the Anglo American model
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