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Old 07-18-2009, 06:05 AM
 
Location: Northwest Limbo
438 posts, read 1,790,574 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vichel View Post
Unfortunately, Australia has a lot of the types who believe they are owed something. I believe in a hands-up to those in need, I don't believe in destitution one hears about in the slums of some developing countries, but there are too many here who view permanent hand-outs as a valid lifelong career option. That's the downside of the social safety net - the blatant abuse of it.

Our welfare system is very, very generous. Especially if you don't mind popping out 5+ kids, to any sperm-donor. It's not like you really have to parent them either. I'm not just bashing the single-mothers, as two-couple families can bleed the system quite efficiently too, without working a single day in their lives, passing on that admirable trait to their brats. Third generation bludgers are becoming more common. Trash your house, you'll get another one asap. It's your "right". There's no personal accountability or responsibility. And a few people I've met who are on "disability" pensions are full of sh**, a couple of them pretty smirky about how they get away with it too.

This is demoralising to those who do believe in work and contributing to society. Even some of those start to think 'why bother' and give up. You can't blame them really. People on low-incomes can be worse off than bludgers with a few kids. You don't just get welfare, you get extra benefits for each kid, special benefits for being a large family, rent assistance, discounts on utility bills, school costs and public transport, doctor visits free (most of us pay a gap of $20+), etc., etc. All those things add up, things that everyone else, even on low wages, have to pay full-price for.

I don't have any faith in these recent and upcoming govt handouts for doing anything for the economy - I think the crisis is a beast out of anyone's control. But it'll certainly create a whole lot more "free lunch" types, whinging for more.
Made the mistake of referring to Australia as socialist on my facebook and had my Aussie friend jump down my throat. Found this thread and I've read through it. I have agreed with much of what was said especially about Australia being a nanny state.
Socialist: Of, promoting, or practicing socialism. Just because Australia isn't Cuba, doesn't mean that it doesn't fit that definition with its healthcare and inumerable hand-outs. Many of America's programs are socialist, too. Let's call a spade a spade!
My husband is Australian and we lived there for 5 years in the early 90's. One of the reasons we went back to the States is just what is quoted above. I hated the welfare state. I worked in a mall in South Australia that was right in the middle of government housing. The people I met, their attitudes, and lifestyles were scary. We didn't want to raise our children there in fear that they would grow up with no work ethic or expect the government to take care of them like we saw in so many other young people. Now we're seeing it here with the Obamamaniacs and it's awful!
My husband was especially glad that we'd gone stateside when the big government gun grab happened after the shootings in Tasmania. If that's not a socialist government saying they know what's best for it's stupid citizens who obviously can't think for themselves, I don't know what is!
:~/ D
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Old 07-18-2009, 07:32 AM
 
9,327 posts, read 21,941,061 times
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True socialism is the government controls and plans all aspects of economic development. The key is ALL. People in their hysteria over Obama have been running the socialist flag when in fact the US government does not control ALL aspects of economic development. If we were to say that a socialist country controls some aspect (not all) then the only country that is NOT socialist would be Somalia -- that's just plain anarchy. But in the areas controlled by the Somali government I'm sure there will be some aspect of economic development that is controlled, and someone will dispute that it is not socialist. So yes Virginia, the world is socialist.

I can't think of any country that is PURE CAPITALIST.. doesn't exist. If someone can enlighten us with an example.. please share.
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Old 07-25-2009, 05:26 AM
 
9,327 posts, read 21,941,061 times
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BTW is the OP trolling? Started the thread but did not contribute.
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Old 08-21-2010, 02:35 AM
 
2 posts, read 27,441 times
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Default Is Australia socialist? Far from it...

Having stumbled across your post quite recently and after browsing through the first few posts I thought I'd give you an Australian answer.

The Australian economy is run to make a profit, not to fulfill the needs of its citizens. The majority of the wealth is owned by a minority of the population and the majority of the population must exchange their labour (physical or mental) for money in order to live. While Australia does have a stock exchange and therefore the potential for every Australian to own a portion of this wealth, in reality it is the minority once again who own most of this stock leaving the majority with only their labour to trade. Even the most cursory reading of Marx will show this isn't the definition of socialism. Australia is definitely a capitalist country.

However, after the second world war Australia followed the Keynesian economic model which advocated public spending to provide those services that the markets either wouldn't provide or couldn't provide universally, eg. universal health care, free university education, standard rate country wide post and telephone (and in a country as vast and scarcely populated as Australia communications is a massively expensive and cross-subsidised business). Although the health care and university aspects didn't come in until the '70s.

It was in the '80s that this system of public spending began to be dismantled by the Hawke/Keating Labor government (left wing) and replaced by the free market based neo-liberal economics of Thatcher and Reagan.

Hope you still need this answer.
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Old 08-22-2010, 05:17 AM
 
1,481 posts, read 2,149,888 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger View Post
from a fellow american, what is everybodys facination about the word socialism now? Is it because republican talking heads have been calling B. Obama's plans for america "socialism"?

do you even know what real socialism is? Do you consider Euro countries like France, Germany, Sweden socialistic countires? America will never embrace with the 'socialism' tag becuase about half the population has been told by the republicans that the federal gov't is always bad, can never do anything cost effective or efficient, and that every tax you ever pay is bad and isn't the cost of living in a society. They'll never tell you the Medicares admin. cost is 4% while the hundreds of private for profit insurance companies in america have admin costs of 20-50%.

BO is a corporate, bought and paid for centrist Democrat that will not bring socialism to america. America has a long way to go before becoming a "socialist" country - even if you measure 'socialism' as being like western Euro countries.

For America to be a or even start to become like a "socialist" country things really have to change. Workers would not be able to be fired "just becuase", ie. at will employment,

we'd all have 4-6 weeks of vacation no matter what job we do, no matter how long we've been there, we'd all work about 35 hours a week and retiring in our mid to late 50's would be common,

we'd all have a minimum guaranteed health insurance with the ability to buy a private policy (just like in German et all, did you know that?), nobody would declare bankrupcy because of medical bills, I know Canadians never do.

we'd have 9months to a year paid maternity leave,

there would be many meds that are currently 30-60% cheaper in Canada suddenly available in the US at those prices, there'd be versions of generic meds currently available in Canada and elsewhere suddenly available in the US. instead of having to wait 3-5more years,

a university education would take about 3 years to complete and be free to all,

the train system would be well developed and subsidised as much as the gov't subsidises the auto and road system and we wouldn't have to listen to people complain about trains being subsidised but not hear a whimper about cars and roads being subsidised by the federal gov't in a hypocritical way,

we'd have a national news and programming channel that would give us near commercial free Olympic broadcasts and a press that would actually spend more than 45 seconds on each 'news' story, instead spending 4 or 5 mins on in depth reporting, including of course far more international news so as to not highlight our insular tendencies.

'socialism', if that's what you want to call it , isn't coming to america anytime soon and a corporate, paid for centrist democrat isn't going to help it along too fast.

i'm sorry, i haven't really answered your question but this whole socialism thing that people are spitting back out here in the US is rediculous. I apologise to the Aussies having to read this rant.

PS: I didn't even vote for Obama but calling him and his ideas "socialist" is ignorant.
Now I can be pretty tough on some Americans, those who arrive in NZ wanting to change it to a version of Kansas get on my wick.

But, I have to ask, why are you in the USA when by your post it seems you would be a good fit in Australia ?

Yes they do have some strange sports, such as that played in Victoria by blokes in very tight and very short shorts.
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Old 08-22-2010, 06:51 AM
 
Location: Bangkok, Thailand
2,678 posts, read 5,043,084 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minibrings View Post
True socialism is the government controls and plans all aspects of economic development. The key is ALL. People in their hysteria over Obama have been running the socialist flag when in fact the US government does not control ALL aspects of economic development. If we were to say that a socialist country controls some aspect (not all) then the only country that is NOT socialist would be Somalia -- that's just plain anarchy. But in the areas controlled by the Somali government I'm sure there will be some aspect of economic development that is controlled, and someone will dispute that it is not socialist. So yes Virginia, the world is socialist.

I can't think of any country that is PURE CAPITALIST.. doesn't exist. If someone can enlighten us with an example.. please share.
Arguably there are no countries that are purely socialist. Both ideaologies represent ideals that are never perfectly realised in practice. More socialist countries have a higher degree of government involvement in citizens' lives, providing a greater range of social services. This necessarily means higher taxation. Hence, tax revenue relative to GDP is generally a good metric to quantify a country's degree of socialism or capitalism. A list may be found here: List of countries by tax revenue as percentage of GDP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not surprisingly, the Nordic countries are clustered at the upper-end of the scale. Arab countries seem to be the most capitalist. Australia does not appear to be overly socialist according to this metric -- it's much closer to the US than Denmark.

The elements of Australian government that I would term 'socialist' are the outrageous vehicle registration fees, so-called "luxury tax", capital gains tax, compulsory retirement saving, etc.
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Old 08-22-2010, 12:47 PM
 
2 posts, read 27,441 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minibrings View Post
True socialism is the government controls and plans all aspects of economic development.
Actually, true socialism is where the workers control and plan all aspects of economic development, and, most importantly, own directly the means of production and produce goods and services based on need not profit. The state would be small and have little input into the running of the economy or not exist at all.

If the state controls all aspects of economic development you end up with an autocratic dictatorship; Stalinist Russia, Maoist China, possibly even Chavez's Venezuela if he keeps going the way he is.
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Old 08-22-2010, 03:57 PM
 
9,327 posts, read 21,941,061 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neillg View Post
Actually, true socialism is where the workers control and plan all aspects of economic development, and, most importantly, own directly the means of production and produce goods and services based on need not profit. The state would be small and have little input into the running of the economy or not exist at all.

If the state controls all aspects of economic development you end up with an autocratic dictatorship; Stalinist Russia, Maoist China, possibly even Chavez's Venezuela if he keeps going the way he is.
Actually some socialists advocate state control of capital and economic activity; either way there is no private control. Obama and his Obamacare has gotten some Americans who don't know better.. in a "socialist" panic.
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Old 08-22-2010, 08:48 PM
 
1,481 posts, read 2,149,888 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChesterNZ View Post
Arguably there are no countries that are purely socialist. Both ideaologies represent ideals that are never perfectly realised in practice. More socialist countries have a higher degree of government involvement in citizens' lives, providing a greater range of social services. This necessarily means higher taxation. Hence, tax revenue relative to GDP is generally a good metric to quantify a country's degree of socialism or capitalism. A list may be found here: List of countries by tax revenue as percentage of GDP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not surprisingly, the Nordic countries are clustered at the upper-end of the scale. Arab countries seem to be the most capitalist. Australia does not appear to be overly socialist according to this metric -- it's much closer to the US than Denmark.

The elements of Australian government that I would term 'socialist' are the outrageous vehicle registration fees, so-called "luxury tax", capital gains tax, compulsory retirement saving, etc.
Interesting, Australia on 30.2 versus the USA on 28.2.
One has to ask what does the USA do with all that money when they have no universal health care paid from general taxation ?
I wonder, does this chart also include property taxes/rates which unlike say NZ are used to pay for schooling and police forces.

What would a bloke who is self employed in the USA pay in the way of income tax, sales tax, (state income tax? ) comprehensive health insurance , property taxes in a so called middle class area on say a gross income of $100,000 ?

On a $100,000 we would pay 20% income tax, plus 12.5 %, goods and services tax which apply to all goods and services except financial services with one or two exceptions.
Property taxes/rates in this area on a house worth $400,000 would be between $2800 to $3600.
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Old 08-23-2010, 02:17 AM
 
Location: Bangkok, Thailand
2,678 posts, read 5,043,084 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nzrugby View Post
Interesting, Australia on 30.2 versus the USA on 28.2.
Another relevant metric would be social welfare expenditure relative to GDP: Welfare state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Again, Australia lies towards the 'purely capitalist' end of the spectrum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nzrugby View Post
One has to ask what does the USA do with all that money when they have no universal health care paid from general taxation ?
Military expenditure and foreign aid, I would guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nzrugby View Post
What would a bloke who is self employed in the USA pay in the way of income tax, sales tax, (state income tax? ) comprehensive health insurance , property taxes in a so called middle class area on say a gross income of $100,000 ?
This question would really be better adressed to an American. I know that it would depend which state you were residing in and what sorts of tricks your tax accountant could pull. Some states have no income tax (of course, you still have to pay federal income tax) and some have no sales tax.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nzrugby View Post
On a $100,000 we would pay 20% income tax, plus 12.5 %, goods and services tax which apply to all goods and services except financial services with one or two exceptions.
Property taxes/rates in this area on a house worth $400,000 would be between $2800 to $3600.
By my calculations you'd pay 26% on $100,000 (unless you're talking about the combined income of you and your partner).

GST will rise to 15% soon. This is much higher than in the US but much lower than in Europe.
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