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Old 11-16-2015, 08:55 AM
 
890 posts, read 1,535,581 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbohm View Post
you mean like when the arizona cardinals went 9-7, won their division and nearly beat the steelers in the super bowl a number of years back? true the current system does reward winning, but it still rewards consistency as well. one could theoretically finish fifth in every race, and earn enough points to make the chase, and get through each chase segment to the final and win the championship all without winning a race the entire season. and that could happen under ANY points system nascar has used
True, but no other system had the president/ceo/hfic stand up and talk about how great the system was because it was going to emphasize winning. I had no problem with the other system other than it could have rewarded winning more. They could have tweaked the system, not totally scrapped it.

Also, in your argument is the fallacy the nascar headshed doesn't seem to get. You can't compare 2 teams being on a field playing a championship game to 4 teams on a field with 39 others at the same time....39 other teams that have been "eliminated".
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Old 11-16-2015, 12:53 PM
 
32,526 posts, read 26,424,778 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbd View Post
Also, in your argument is the fallacy the nascar headshed doesn't seem to get. You can't compare 2 teams being on a field playing a championship game to 4 teams on a field with 39 others at the same time....39 other teams that have been "eliminated".
you completely missed the point i was trying to make. it isnt about who wins the most, its about who wins when the chips are down.

none of the drivers in the final four were predicted to be there, except kevin harvick. just like the cardinals were not predicted to even be in the super bowl against the steelers, let alone very nearly beating them.

you guys just wont give the new system a chance will you?
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Old 11-16-2015, 04:22 PM
 
Location: Buckeye, AZ
27,432 posts, read 15,839,217 times
Reputation: 9903
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbohm View Post
you completely missed the point i was trying to make. it isnt about who wins the most, its about who wins when the chips are down.

none of the drivers in the final four were predicted to be there, except kevin harvick. just like the cardinals were not predicted to even be in the super bowl against the steelers, let alone very nearly beating them.

you guys just wont give the new system a chance will you?
I can't give this system a chance because you can put in drivers who have no business being in over drivers who should. Take 2013, the year that was used as the reason we should change the chase. A scrub driver got a fluke win at Dega and finished 25th in points after Richmond 2, the 26th race with that as his ONLY top 10, let alone top 5 finish. Tell me how that driver deserves to be there. That's like telling the 8th place team in a conference they can't play in because the 11th place team (out of 16) beat them during the season.

By the new chase standards: Matt Kenseth who finished 6th with 5 wins; Jimmie Johnson who finished 2nd and Kyle Busch who finished 5th, both with 4 wins; Carl Edward who finished 1st, Kevin Harvick who finished 4th, and Kasey Kahne who finished 14th, all with 2 wins; and Greg Biffle who finished 9th, Joey Lagano who finished 10th, Martin Truex Jr. who finished 12th, Ryan Newman who finished 13th and David Ragan who was the aforementioned 25th placed driver, all with a single win (NOTE: so did Tony Stewart but he was out with an injury.) That is 11 of the 16 seeds in the chase. The non-winners in the chase would be Clint Bowyer (3rd in points,) Dale Earnhardt Jr (7th in points,) Kurt Busch (8th in points,) Jeff Gordon (11th in points,) and Jamie McMurrary (15th in points.) Meanwhile MUCH MORE CONSISTANT drivers through out the year were left out, namely Brad Keselowski because of some scrub with a fluke plate win who never got another top 10, let alone top 5 finish other than the win.

The problem many had with the Cardinals heading into the 2008 season Super Bowl was not over them not deserving to be there but that they were higher ranked over teams with better records because they were the division champ in a weak division. It's apples and oranges to this case.

I say make the wins matter if they finish in the top 20 in points, not top 30 if they are going to keep this system. That is the only way I'd like keeping it (though I am not a fan of allowing drivers to pull what Harvick did to stay in as well as what Kenseth did to Joey.)
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Old 11-16-2015, 10:14 PM
 
9,444 posts, read 7,128,216 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkpunk View Post
I say make the wins matter if they finish in the top 20 in points, not top 30 if they are going to keep this system. That is the only way I'd like keeping it (though I am not a fan of allowing drivers to pull what Harvick did to stay in as well as what Kenseth did to Joey.)
Where do you stand on Kyle Busch racing for the championship this year?

He missed 11 races due to injury, but.. Let's be honest, was a top driver for the races that he did compete in.

I don't recall where he was in points after Richmond, but it wasn't top 20.. Think he was around 26th or so. Does he deserve to be racing for the championship this year?

I can actually go both ways on it.. The thing I love about this new format is that a driver can miss a race without major penalty. No more Ricky Rudd driving with tape holding his eyes open. 11 races is.. A bit more than I would like to see someone miss and still be able to win a championship, though.

I'd almost like to see something like an amped up version of how ROTY is figured. You take the top 25 finishes out of 36 races.. Most points win. While you still could have someone miss 11 races and theoretically win the championship.. They'd have to be PERFECT for those 25 races. Or.. Maybe the best 30 of 36.. But, keep the chance for someone to miss a race or a couple of races due to injury.

Speaking of ROTY.. Anyone else miss the late 90's/early 2000's where rookies were tearing it up? From 1999-2007.. A rookie won a race.. With the exception of 2004, where I think Kasey Kahne finished 2nd something like 6 times. A note on 2003.. McMurray didn't win in his rookie year(He won in 2002 subbing for Marlin), but that was Biffle's rookie year as well, and he did win a race, while McMurray won ROTY. We could take it to 2009.. Logano won that year, but.. No rookie winner in 2008.

Since then.. ROTY award winners have sucked, with the exception of Larson last year (Who, I think will be a winner 'sometime soon').. Kevin Conway, Andy Lally, Stephen Leicht and Stenhouse.. No idea who is leading ROTY this year, but.. Jeb Burton, Alex Kennedy, Matt DiBenedetto and Brett Moffitt are the contenders. I'd assume Moffitt is leading.
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Old 11-16-2015, 10:25 PM
 
Location: Upper St. Clair, PA
367 posts, read 320,123 times
Reputation: 994
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbohm View Post
you completely missed the point i was trying to make. it isnt about who wins the most, its about who wins when the chips are down.

none of the drivers in the final four were predicted to be there, except kevin harvick. just like the cardinals were not predicted to even be in the super bowl against the steelers, let alone very nearly beating them.

you guys just wont give the new system a chance will you?
A driver who is 16th in points after 26 races should not have a chance to win the Championship.
I don't like the elimination format as is. I would like it a lot better if it were the same with one exception: top 8 drivers after 26 drivers, not top 16. That way, you have to win at least twice and maybe even three times to make the Chase. That way, there are no flukes like we almost had last year with Newman.
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Old 11-16-2015, 10:32 PM
 
Location: Buckeye, AZ
27,432 posts, read 15,839,217 times
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My stance on Kyle Busch is that he should have been in the chase. NASCAR caused that issue by not having track safety (whether the Glen bootleg or inside wall SAFER barriers) be the priority that it should have been after several years of injuries. Also unlike Ragan, Kyle won several races so it wasn't some fluke. Kyle may been 27th going into Richmond but, he had 9 top 10s out of the 14 starts he had, 5 of which were top 5s and of those 5 top 5's, 4 went into victory lane. Hard to say he had a fluke year like Ragan did winning in his only top 10.

I do think that Rookie of the Year is convoluted. Remember in 2002, Jimmie Johnson wasn't rookie of the year despite a more consistent year that brought home a higher points finish than the driver who won it, Ryan Newman. I say keep the chase the way it was up til 2014 but maybe make the first nine races qualifiers and then only have the best 8 (out of wins and point) of the 16 race it out. And by the best 8, I mean just those 8. No non-chasers to play spoiler, just the ones going for the cup. If there's intentional wrecks, you're black flagged for the entire race and put in the finishing order below the driver you wrecked.
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Old 11-16-2015, 10:36 PM
 
Location: Buckeye, AZ
27,432 posts, read 15,839,217 times
Reputation: 9903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessica2099 View Post
A driver who is 16th in points after 26 races should not have a chance to win the Championship.
I don't like the elimination format as is. I would like it a lot better if it were the same with one exception: top 8 drivers after 26 drivers, not top 16. That way, you have to win at least twice and maybe even three times to make the Chase. That way, there are no flukes like we almost had last year with Newman.
I rather the 16th placed driver in than the 25th like Ragan would have been. As I stated in a previous post, he was the driver that led the writers to complain to NASCAR to force NASCAR to mandate that if you win and finish 30th in driver points with that being your only top 10 finish, you're in over a much more consistent driver with several top 5s (let alone top 10s) who just couldn't close the deal.
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Old 11-17-2015, 12:45 AM
 
32,526 posts, read 26,424,778 times
Reputation: 19170
well getting to the playoffs is the easier part of the equation. once there you have to perform or you get dumped.
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Old 11-17-2015, 05:41 AM
 
Location: Buckeye, AZ
27,432 posts, read 15,839,217 times
Reputation: 9903
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbohm View Post
well getting to the playoffs is the easier part of the equation. once there you have to perform or you get dumped.
Yes but these 25th place drivers with only one top 10 (that being their win) are effectively going to be eliminated first round while perhaps the 16th place driver (or higher depending on the amount of winners) could have won and moved on. These fluke winners would typically need another fluke to move on.

Note I disagree with the NHL's new top three teams get into the playoffs that was set up with their realignment as a weak division can see teams that shouldn't be in as the 6th place team in another conference could be better than the third place team in the worst division of that conference. The best teams should be in the playoffs, for NASCAR wins are a small component compared to consistency. A TRUE FAN knows that and I hate using the No True Scottsman argu!ment but I was a fan as a kid and into my young adulthood and I knew this. I'm sure the older fans see this too.
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Old 11-17-2015, 07:03 AM
PDD
 
Location: The Sand Hills of NC
8,774 posts, read 14,900,576 times
Reputation: 11886
Guys, we are stuck with what we got, NASCAR is not listening to it's customers, if they were they would not be removing seats from most of the tracks.
You can choose to stop paying for the seats at the track or for the premium TV channels but as long as sponsors are willing to pump millions into supporting teams and NASCAR it will never go back to the good ole days.

Since my team is eliminated from the final race as a championship contender my only interest this week is hoping one of them can rain on the parade.
Then it's back to football watching until Daytona in Feb.
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