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Old 04-18-2016, 08:43 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDD View Post
Unfair advantage would be outspending the competition by many millions.

Just like when the Yankees were outspending the competition and winning the series every year. They also played by the same rules but they out spent everybody else. Now with a salary cap they do not dominate every year.

This is what I believe Toyota is doing because NASCAR has no spending cap and Toyota will just outspend until they dominate.

You know just like F1.

There is a reason many fans are unhappy with NASCAR. I am suggesting one brand dominance is keeping fans out of the seats. It is my reason for not buying any tickets this year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbd View Post
Yet when they Yankees were outspending everyone from 2005-2008 and 2010-present they didn't won. Teams with the highest expenditures doesn't guarantee winning - see the Dodgers. The money has to be spent wisely.

Toyota may be outspending everyone, but they are still playing by the rules. Chevy had their period of dominance, as did Ford. And there was much whining then too.
sorry pdd, but as noted the yankees didnt win every year even though they outspent to competition. and dont forget that this is the top end of the sport, spending money is part of the game here, this isnt sportsman racing you know.
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Old 04-18-2016, 09:45 AM
PDD PDD started this thread
 
Location: The Sand Hills of NC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbohm View Post
sorry pdd, but as noted the yankees didnt win every year even though they outspent to competition. and dont forget that this is the top end of the sport, spending money is part of the game here, this isnt sportsman racing you know.
I'm talking the Yankees of the 50's 60's when they did outspend every year and win most years. Then every team in the big markets started overspending and the Yankees lost their edge.

Do you really wan to to see F1 type spending wars in NASCAR? A lot of fans are complaining and staying home now because they say the racing sucks. It can only get worse unless NASCAR implements some type of spending cap.

We can only speculate on why Gibbs traded in winning GM support for Toyotas but I am sure lots of these $$$$$$$ were in play. And definitely it's working.

BTW since you mentioned sportsman racing, Gibbs and his Toyotas are totally dominating in the "sportsman class".

When will it ever end?
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Old 04-18-2016, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Island of Misfit Toys
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I'm sure some are put off by brand dominance, PDD is an example of this however I have to believe the majority are put off because of the what the series has become - a spec series that's rather boring. They can stick whatever decal they want on those cars, we all know they are purpose built spec cars and have zero relation to the stock car or brand. It really has become IROC. Those empty seats Sunday were very telling of the health of nascar, it's not healthy at all. Something has to give or it's dead. Motorsports in general are in trouble and nascar in particular.
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Old 04-18-2016, 11:54 AM
 
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At Bristol I think its magnified more because that place used to be a "don't miss" event. On top of the NASCAR rules and all that goes with it, the track has been reconfigured to where instead of running around the bottom, they just run around the top. It was ok when they had it with multiple grooves, but fans complained about that too.
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Old 04-18-2016, 04:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDD View Post
We can only speculate on why Gibbs traded in winning GM support for Toyotas but I am sure lots of these $$$$$$$ were in play. And definitely it's working.

The same reason that SHR is going to Ford.

If you're a Chevy team, about the best you can do is the third place team so far as money. Hendrick is #1, Childress #2, Ganassi #3. An argument could be made for who is 2nd or 3rd.

Gibbs was never going to the be flag bearer for Chevy, and at the time they left.. There were even more Chevy teams eating up the dollars.

Toyota had MWR, Bill Davis, Petty, Red Bull.. Mid-pack teams at best. Adding Gibbs added a top-tier team and took Gibbs from #3 in line with Chevy to #1 at Toyota.. Frankly, Toyota only has 3 or 4 wins that aren't from Gibbs.. Vickers at Red Bull and another at MWR. Then 2 wins by Reutimann at MWR?

What's going to be interesting.. I've discussed the next 10 years the sport from an ownership perspective will look very different.. I'd always said that Gibbs would stay in the family.. JD would have taken over.. But.. I don't know JD is going to recover. If Joe died tomorrow.. The team would continue, but would it be up for sale? And.. Let's be honest.. That team is where it is because of Joe and JD at the helm. Can Coy do the same? Would he want to?

Now.. Another thing.. If Gibbs were with Chevy, and were the #1 team there.. Would we be talking about Chevy dominance? I think so. I think it's Gibbs dominance right now, not specifically Toyota. Gibbs would be strong regardless of the manufacturer. I think they'd be close to this strong if they were #3 at Chevy. They were close when they were #3-ish with Chevy. being #1 at Toyota just put them over the top.
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Old 04-18-2016, 05:19 PM
 
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Excellent post Labonte18!
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Old 04-18-2016, 11:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDD View Post
I'm talking the Yankees of the 50's 60's when they did outspend every year and win most years. Then every team in the big markets started overspending and the Yankees lost their edge.
the 50s and 60s were a different time though.

Quote:
Do you really wan to to see F1 type spending wars in NASCAR? A lot of fans are complaining and staying home now because they say the racing sucks. It can only get worse unless NASCAR implements some type of spending cap.
i am not sure that can be avoided these days. granted we have some rules that prevent massive spending requirements like nascar supplies the computers for the EFI, and active suspensions and traction control are not allowed. and nascar has petty much gone to a spec body as well as a spec tire, and a spec chassis as well. so there are spending limits in nascar. also note that there are certain things that you cannot do to an engine, like change the angle of the intake ports, and valves among other things. but how far the other way do you want to go? i mean nascar could require spec engines as well. do you want that?

Quote:
We can only speculate on why Gibbs traded in winning GM support for Toyotas but I am sure lots of these $$$$$$$ were in play. And definitely it's working.
in part its about the money, and in part its about the prestige as well. as noted with chevrolet, gibbs was at best the number three team, where as at toyota he is number one.

Quote:
BTW since you mentioned sportsman racing, Gibbs and his Toyotas are totally dominating in the "sportsman class".

When will it ever end?
you mean late model modified? or what?
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Old 04-19-2016, 07:57 AM
PDD PDD started this thread
 
Location: The Sand Hills of NC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Labonte18 View Post
The same reason that SHR is going to Ford.



Now.. Another thing.. If Gibbs were with Chevy, and were the #1 team there.. Would we be talking about Chevy dominance? I think so. I think it's Gibbs dominance right now, not specifically Toyota. Gibbs would be strong regardless of the manufacturer. I think they'd be close to this strong if they were #3 at Chevy. They were close when they were #3-ish with Chevy. being #1 at Toyota just put them over the top.
Pretty sure if TS wanted to go Toyota he could have. Glad he is staying American.

So it's not a Toyota thing as much as Gibbs knows the automobile racing game better then.

Rick Hendrick
Jack Roush
Roger Penske
Chip Ganassi
Richard Childress

All owners who at one time or another have dominated racing in the USA

Yes that's it.

How about this, Toyota has a factory full of race engineers in Japan running engine dyno's 24/7 just to stay ahead of GM and Ford. This research gets passed on to TRD in California to build NASCAR engines.

IMO it's Japan saying we can beat you at your own game.

Just like they do in business all the time. Electronics. Automobiles.

It's not about racing. it about Japan proving it's better then the USA
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Old 04-19-2016, 08:03 AM
PDD PDD started this thread
 
Location: The Sand Hills of NC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbohm View Post
the 50s and 60s were a different time though.



i am not sure that can be avoided these days. granted we have some rules that prevent massive spending requirements like nascar supplies the computers for the EFI, and active suspensions and traction control are not allowed. and nascar has petty much gone to a spec body as well as a spec tire, and a spec chassis as well. so there are spending limits in nascar. also note that there are certain things that you cannot do to an engine, like change the angle of the intake ports, and valves among other things. but how far the other way do you want to go? i mean nascar could require spec engines as well. do you want that?



in part its about the money, and in part its about the prestige as well. as noted with chevrolet, gibbs was at best the number three team, where as at toyota he is number one.



you mean late model modified? or what?
How long have you been a NASCAR fan? Before it was Grand National, Bush or Exfinity it was the Sportsman class.
Different name but same group of underfunded (well they used to be underfunded) teams running companion races to Cup.
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Old 04-19-2016, 09:04 AM
 
9,426 posts, read 7,090,419 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDD View Post
Pretty sure if TS wanted to go Toyota he could have. Glad he is staying American.

So it's not a Toyota thing as much as Gibbs knows the automobile racing game better then.

Rick Hendrick
Jack Roush
Roger Penske
Chip Ganassi
Richard Childress

All owners who at one time or another have dominated racing in the USA
Let's look at lineups.

Hendrick - Johnson.. Won 2 races this year. Earnhardt who is barely a top-tier driver. Yeah, i'll take heat for that, but he barely fits in the conversation with a Johnson, Gordon, Busch, etc. Elliott who is a rookie going through the learning curve and Kahne who has fallen off the past few years. Whether it is due to the team, him, communication between him and the team.. Whatever. They have been very competitive. There's luck involved. Sometimes you run great and don't win. But, if you run great, the wins will come.

Roush - They're rebuilding. They have no top-tier driver. Biffle might have been considered one a few years back. Bayne and Stenhouse are mid-packers at best right now.

Penske - Two top tier drivers, and if you want to toss Blaney in with them, an up-and-comer. and, they have a win this year and have been very competitive. They could have more than 1 win.

Ganassi - McMurray.. Not an elite driver. Good, solid, but not elite. Larson, up and coming. Waiting for him to break through.

Childress - Newman is in the class with McMurray. Dillon wouldn't likely have a job in cup if Childress wasn't his grandfather (He doesn't suck, but he's not great, either) and Menard who is a journeyman that's driven for about every team in the garage.


Now.. Look at Gibbs..

Hamlin - A notch above Earnhardt. when he puts it all together, he can be dominant. So close several times to a championship

Busch - Defending champion

Kenseth - Past champ on the downside, but still an elite driver.

Edwards - An elite driver who has been a nose-hair away from a championship.

and, we toss Truex in there, who is not an elite level driver but very solid with FRR. He's gotten a bump this year from being associated with JGR, but that team was very good last year. It's not like they've magically become competitive after going to Toyota.

Then, waiting in the wings, you have Suarez and Jones.


Gibbs is just the best team right now. The only other team that comes close to them is Penske and they're just a 2 (quasi-3) car team. Once Elliott puts it together.. Look out for Hendrick, again.

And, just to mention SHR..

Patrick - Not a good driver.

Busch - Elite level, past champ..

Stewart's Car - No car is going to do great with a rotating cast of characters behind the wheel.

Harvick - Elite driver.




I think Gibbs also has perfected the 'team' dynamic on a large scale. Hendrick always has one car that just doesn't perform. Generally, the 5 car. Roush had the same problem.. Whether it was Chad Little, the 6 car after Martin's retirement, the 99 when it had sponsor problems and Burton was leaving.. You really never see a single team struggling long-term at Gibbs. Edwards did at the start of last year, but they turned it around. And.. When "Struggling" means you only win 1 race and make it 2 rounds in the chase.. Not bad. The 20 struggled with Logano and a change was made.

I'll also note here that the two teams that I think are doing the best.. Gibbs and Penske.. Also have strong full-time XfiniBuschWide teams.

And.. We can talk about Logano.. He couldn't do squat in a Toyota. Yes, he won a few races, but in general wasn't overly competitive. Put him with Penske and it was like it was a totally different driver. Is that because he went to a Ford? No.
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