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I've been looking for another vehicle in the past week or so, and am put off by people asking $1000-2000 above Kelley Blue Book prices. What's up with that? One person even put "no low ballers" in their ad. Excuse me, but when you ask $2000 above the Blue Book something's up. Don't expect people to pay or even bite when clearly you're high-balling!
Just curious - what area of the country are you in? I've noticed a lot more frequency of the "high-ball" scenario you reference here on the West coast than I ever did in the Midwest. And I view the practice the same way you do.
I would venture a guess that many of the posters here who are discounting the importance of the KBB are very young and don't understand that it has been the "Bible" of used car valuation for almost as long as there have been used cars. A fair, mature, and honest person....the kind you want to buy a car from....will respect the significance of the KBB value.
Just curious - what area of the country are you in? I've noticed a lot more frequency of the "high-ball" scenario you reference here on the West coast than I ever did in the Midwest. And I view the practice the same way you do.
I would venture a guess that many of the posters here who are discounting the importance of the KBB are very young and don't understand that it has been the "Bible" of used car valuation for almost as long as there have been used cars. A fair, mature, and honest person....the kind you want to buy a car from....will respect the significance of the KBB value.
Not quite. 53 year old Nuclear Engineer, MENSA member, DIY mechanic of considerable experience and ability.
What I said is, that on cars beyond 10 years old, say, the spread between the best and worst examples out there becomes very large, particularly in terms of % of price. This being the case, KBB is not worth much in this part of the market.
It *is* good for fairly late model cars, stuff that has not got old enough to have needed extensive work. These cars get uniformly less valuable with every day of age and mile of use, sure. But the really old stuff may have significant wear parts like clutches replaced on the best examples, and these good cars will be in seriously better conditon than the average or worst examples.
And, yes, you'll see more "high-ball" prices out West because you'll see more excellent cars out here. In the Midwest any car that sees winter duty is rusty after 10 winters wallowing in the salt. Out here you'll find cars from the 60's still in more or less original service. And you'll get laughed at if you try to buy the best older cars out here for what KBB says they're worth, assuming they even quote a price for 10, 15, 20 year old rigs.
One needs to look at and evaluate the CAR, not a pile of paper or KBB.
Just curious - what area of the country are you in? I've noticed a lot more frequency of the "high-ball" scenario you reference here on the West coast than I ever did in the Midwest. And I view the practice the same way you do.
I would venture a guess that many of the posters here who are discounting the importance of the KBB are very young and don't understand that it has been the "Bible" of used car valuation for almost as long as there have been used cars. A fair, mature, and honest person....the kind you want to buy a car from....will respect the significance of the KBB value.
Not quite. 53 year old Nuclear Engineer, MENSA member, DIY mechanic of considerable experience and ability.
What I said is, that on cars beyond 10 years old, say, the spread between the best and worst examples out there becomes very large, particularly in terms of % of price. This being the case, KBB is not worth much in this part of the market.
It *is* good for fairly late model cars, stuff that has not got old enough to have needed extensive work. These cars get uniformly less valuable with every day of age and mile of use, sure. But the really old stuff may have significant wear parts like clutches replaced on the best examples, and these good cars will be in seriously better conditon than the average or worst examples.
And, yes, you'll see more "high-ball" prices out West because you'll see more excellent cars out here. In the Midwest any car that sees winter duty is rusty after 10 winters wallowing in the salt. Out here you'll find cars from the 60's still in more or less original service. And you'll get laughed at if you try to buy the best older cars out here for what KBB says they're worth, assuming they even quote a price for 10, 15, 20 year old rigs.
One needs to look at and evaluate the CAR, not a pile of paper or KBB.
I have been prospecting in the used car market longer than you have....many years in the Midwest and many years out here....and I am also an amateur mechanic.
Seasoned private party buyers know that, by far, your best assurance of finding a high quality car is to seek and identify a high quality seller. One of the things that means is that you run the other way when someone tries to feed you a line like " you'll get laughed at if you try to buy the best older cars out here for what KBB says they're worth". Out here, you run the other way from 95% of scenarios and your gut tells you when you've finally found the right one.
Yes, there are some cars that have extraordinary or collector status value but they are the exception and not the rule. The vast majority of "high-balling" that goes on out here is pure attitude. In contrast to the Midwest, out here ripping people off has become part of the culture - almost like a regional disease.
My laughing is done at people using any line of BS they can think of in an attempt to unload a pile of crap at a premium price - again a far more common scenario here than in the Midwest.
With only the rarest of exceptions, you never pay more for a used car than the excellent level Kelley Blue Book - regardless of location. And the most honest of sellers will price accordingly - specifying that the price is firm for a car in outstanding condition.
I would venture a guess that many of the posters here who are discounting the importance of the KBB are very young and don't understand that it has been the "Bible" of used car valuation for almost as long as there have been used cars. A fair, mature, and honest person....the kind you want to buy a car from....will respect the significance of the KBB value.
Ah yes, the old 'I'm older than you so I know what I'm talking about' trump card. Always love seeing that one played .
If anything, the smarter way to price a vehicle in this wonderful age of internet is to check out your competition and price accordingly. When I make the decision that a vehicle has to go, I spend a good amount of time checking out online ads for similar vehicles (ideally the same year, make, and model) and gage my vehicle against theirs. Does mine have more features or less? Does it have more or less miles? Is it in better overall condition? How long has the competition been for sale? This is the better way to go about it since this is what the buyer is looking at. Now, will those prices gravitate towards KBB? Maybe, maybe not. But that shows me what the market value for my vehicle truly is and I can then price my vehicle accordingly based on a balance of how much money I want/need to make and how quickly I want the car sold.
As a seller, if I think or know that my vehicle can get more than what some mystical book says my car is worth, why the heck would I shoot myself in the foot? And even if it's not but I think there's a chance someone out there may pay me more than it's worth, what makes me the bad guy for giving it a shot? It's the buyer's responsibility to know what they're getting and what they want to pay. That's the reason for things like KBB and NADA, to give a buyer a rough idea of the ballpark they should be in. It shouldn't dictate anything. And if a buyer wants to stick to their guns and not pay any more than what KBB says they should, then that's their perogative (sp?), just as it's mine as a seller to ask whatever I'd like. And if that seems dishonest to a buyer, think of the flipside to this. Let's say I set my price much less than KBB, perhaps because that's what the market value for that vehicle seems to be at the time. Is the buyer rippiong me off because he/she is not paying KBB? No, because in the end the situation still remains that two parties have to come to an agreement regarding what an item is worth, regardless of what some outside entity says.
As a buyer, using market value over KBB is also the better way to go. Trying to convince a seller to lower their price just because some book says they should is a tough sell. But, if you try to convince a seller to come down on price because there's another guy down the street selling the same vehicle with a better deal, it's a more compelling argument. The seller may still tell you to go pound sand, but at least he'll know exactly why his vehicle didn't sell and someone else's did.
Now, what IS dishonest in the world of private party sales? IMO, lying about the condition of the vehicle in any way is the worst offense. If you're off-loading a vehicle that you KNOW has a bad tranny but only shows it after driving around for an hour (in other words, it won't show up on a test drive), that's dishonest. If you know the piston rings are shot so you warm up the vehicle before the potential buyer shows in order to eliminate any smoking, that's dishonest. The true scumbags of the private party world (or used car dealers for that matter) are the ones that try to dupe people into getting into a vehicle that has problems they won't find until long after the transaction has been completed. Being up front with the true condition of your vehicle shows you as the 'fair, mature, and honest' seller that CrownVic95 eludes to more than anything else IMO.
Mike
Last edited by whiteboyslo; 09-25-2010 at 06:06 AM..
I have been prospecting in the used car market longer than you have....many years in the Midwest and many years out here....and I am also an amateur mechanic.
Seasoned private party buyers know that, by far, your best assurance of finding a high quality car is to seek and identify a high quality seller. One of the things that means is that you run the other way when someone tries to feed you a line like " you'll get laughed at if you try to buy the best older cars out here for what KBB says they're worth". Out here, you run the other way from 95% of scenarios and your gut tells you when you've finally found the right one.
Yes, there are some cars that have extraordinary or collector status value but they are the exception and not the rule. The vast majority of "high-balling" that goes on out here is pure attitude. In contrast to the Midwest, out here ripping people off has become part of the culture - almost like a regional disease.
My laughing is done at people using any line of BS they can think of in an attempt to unload a pile of crap at a premium price - again a far more common scenario here than in the Midwest.
With only the rarest of exceptions, you never pay more for a used car than the excellent level Kelley Blue Book - regardless of location. And the most honest of sellers will price accordingly - specifying that the price is firm for a car in outstanding condition.
hahaha. I agree with Mitch. been playing with cars for 30+ years on both coasts. Was never a car salesman, but I've owned over a hundred cars, myself. He's right about KBB vs older cars, especially out west.
Now, what IS dishonest in the world of private party sales? IMO, lying about the condition of the vehicle in any way is the worst offense. If you're off-loading a vehicle that you KNOW has a bad tranny but only shows it after driving around for an hour (in other words, it won't show up on a test drive), that's dishonest. If you know the piston rings are shot so you warm up the vehicle before the potential buyer shows in order to eliminate any smoking, that's dishonest. The true scumbags of the private party world (or used car dealers for that matter) are the ones that try to dupe people into getting into a vehicle that has problems they won't find until long after the transaction has been completed. Being up front with the true condition of your vehicle shows you as the 'fair, mature, and honest' seller that CrownVic95 eludes to more than anything else IMO.
Since time immemorial the next generation(s) have come along and changed things, thinking it's better. Sometimes it is, sometimes it is not. There will always be debates about which is true.
CrownVic wasn't pulling the "age" card that you accused him of, Mike. He was holding, in my opinion rightfully so, to a standard that has worked well for years, and appears to work yet still. KBB has been around a long time. Until someone proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is no longer viable or useful, then I'll start holding to a different standard. KBB provides a touchpoint that people can take and go from there. The fact that many people now disagree with the idea of KBB doesn't make KBB wrong.
As for Wilson's comment above, I agree. The vehicle appears to be in good shape outwardly, and it may be "good" inwardly which is a "good" rating, therefore 1800 on KBB. You think it isn't worth even 1800 while others on the interwebs think it's worth anywhere from $2300 to $3700. Again, I happen to agree with your assessment. Just because someone wants to separate me from more of my money than is ethical (and even moral) doesn't mean I'm going to hand it to him.
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