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Old 03-15-2011, 09:21 AM
PDD
 
Location: The Sand Hills of NC
8,776 posts, read 14,138,585 times
Reputation: 11850

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Quote:
Originally Posted by snofarmer View Post


lastly,
"The gov.t has allowed the trucking industry to add a fuel surcharge to all shipping charges so the trucking industry does no care about the fuel tax."
What a bunch of bs.
The govt did not give permission for the fuel surcharge and not everyone added one.
Of course they care about the cost of fuel.

A few years a go when fuel went up I added a fuel surcharge to our invoices as we bid the price for a job when fuel was cheep.
I didn't need no stinking permission to do so.
\

Excuse me but plowing driveways does not constitute one as being a trucker. Your customer invoices might be on the back of a Mc Donalds napkin for all I know.

Could you please explain how for many years there was no road use tax for diesel fuel, that same as it is for off road use. But when the gov.t slapped a road use tax on diesel all of a sudden the shipping industry was printing fuel surcharges to invoices. If the gov.t did not start charging road use taxes it would not be necessary to add fuel surcharges to invoices.
The fuel surcharges are just a way of justifying additional fuel cost.

The truckers are certainly entitled to recover additional costs but it softens the blow by calling it a surcharge.
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Old 03-15-2011, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Northern MN
3,869 posts, read 12,502,193 times
Reputation: 3540
Well PDD Show me where I said I was a trucker and then show me where someone can only have one job.



Quote:
Originally Posted by PDD View Post
\

Excuse me but plowing driveways does not constitute one as being a trucker. Your customer invoices might be on the back of a Mc Donalds napkin for all I know.
And you could be a 13yr old girl for all we know.

Could you please explain how for many years there was no road use tax for diesel fuel, that same as it is for off road use.
Did you read my post or are you talking about some-other post you read?
Off-road fuel does not have road tax applied to it now or yesterday.
Who said it was the same?
The price for both on road and off road went up.


But when the gov.t slapped a road use tax on diesel all of a sudden the shipping industry was printing fuel surcharges to invoices.
Wrong, fuel surcharges.
Lets say a CO has a shipping cost chart, x per mile. Then fuel goes up a dollar, to recoup the cost of rapidly raising fuel they add a surcharge.
It more than just truckers adding a fuel surcharge. order some concrete and the ready-mix guys will have a fuel surcharge.



If the gov.t did not start charging road use taxes it would not be necessary to add fuel surcharges to invoices.
A surcharge is not a road tax.
Read that again.
Nor is it collected by the govt.
A surcharge may include the increase in tax but most of it is to recoup the cost of fuel that is increasing at a rate that is hard to keep up with using a set cost structure.
it allows flexibility as the surcharge that is charged changes from company to company.

The fuel surcharges are just a way of justifying additional fuel cost.
No justification is needed. It's the cost of doing business and the cost is paid by the customer..

The truckers are certainly entitled to recover additional costs but it softens the blow by calling it a surcharge.
It softens the blow.

Who said that anyone is not entitled to recover the cost of doing business. What you call it does not change a thing. It still is a cost of doing business. it's still money.
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Old 03-15-2011, 10:15 AM
 
14,777 posts, read 34,498,385 times
Reputation: 14278
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDD View Post
\

Excuse me but plowing driveways does not constitute one as being a trucker. Your customer invoices might be on the back of a Mc Donalds napkin for all I know.

Could you please explain how for many years there was no road use tax for diesel fuel, that same as it is for off road use. But when the gov.t slapped a road use tax on diesel all of a sudden the shipping industry was printing fuel surcharges to invoices. If the gov.t did not start charging road use taxes it would not be necessary to add fuel surcharges to invoices.
The fuel surcharges are just a way of justifying additional fuel cost.

The truckers are certainly entitled to recover additional costs but it softens the blow by calling it a surcharge.
Maybe you weren't aware, but the federal government has taxed diesel fuel since 1956. Originally both on and off highway was taxed, though at different rates. Then in order to help fund the highway system, but not put a burden on farmers the off road tax was eliminated and the on highway tax raised. So, it's not like all of a sudden they started taxing it. Obviously the tax has increased over the years, with the last jump in 2007. That 2007 jump may be where you're getting your surcharge tied to taxes idea from.

When contracts are written, they are written with a specific fuel price range. The contract is valid as long as fuel remains within that range. If prices go above that range, than a pre-determined surcharge per mile is added to the bill based on what the price of fuel is. Some contracts also contain a provision to refund a certain cost per mile if fuel drops lower. Trust me, surcharges aren't added willy nilly and are very tightly controlled through contracts.

If you are talking about companies like UPS and FedEx, they added the fuel surcharges in place of enacting a permanent price increase. When fuel prices dropped, the surcharges went away, but they are becoming more popular again. Of course, for those companies it works the same way as it does for the trucking industry. Shipping rates are tied to fuel prices, if the price goes up, they need to recover that cost.

Many other businesses operate this way as well as it is seen as an easy way to show their customers why the price has gone up. It also allows them to more easily adjust their pricing as fuel changes. Another aspect of this is advertising and contracts for these smaller operations. With the price of fuel so volatile they need the flexibility of a surcharge without changing all their advertising and rewriting contracts.

While taxes are a part of the equation, they are not the reason for the surcharges.
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Old 03-16-2011, 03:07 PM
 
Location: Pikesville, MD
5,229 posts, read 11,484,624 times
Reputation: 4846
Quote:
Originally Posted by oz in SC View Post
Diesel was cheaper than regular gas just a few years ago....

As to being highly overrated,well seems the diesels work out quite well everywhere else on earth....except the USA.

But it can't be THIS country that is the problem it must be diesel vehicles.
Hold up here. European taxation on larger engines and CO2 make small diesles extremely attractive. Using Europe and the UK as a barometer for what might work here is silly as their tax structure and regulatory structure created that demand. Notice as soon as Europeans get any money, they DO buy bigger vehicles, and get them over here and they tend to go hog wild on average (yes, there are still outliers, but the lure of cheap luxury cars, sports cars, and musclecars often overcomes that taxed-in frugality mentality).

If Europe and the UK didn't tax larger displacement cars heavily, you'd see a situation similar to here in the US.
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Old 03-16-2011, 03:17 PM
 
Location: Indiana
1,306 posts, read 2,571,367 times
Reputation: 888
Fuel surcharges have been a part of the trucking industry as long as I've been around it. They may fluctuate with the price of fuel but they've always been there, even when fuel was cheap. When a carrier negotiates a mileage rate, they either include the FSC in with their rate or they keep them separate. So it might me $2.00 a mile or $1.60 per mile with a .40 PM FSC.

A lot keep it separate and a lot include it so it may slip past some but the rate will usually reflect it either way. It has a lot of variations as not all carriers haul on a per mile basis. Obviously the price of fuel does impact the cost of goods, fuel goes up and the rates go up with it. Trucking has slim profit margins so you have to be dead on with your quotes, fuel is a killer.

As far as taxes go, unless your in the trucking industry don't worry about IFTA and the like because it can get confusing.

I'll admit I only read the last page of this thread so my post may have nothing to do with anything you all are talking about. Your stuck looking at it, regardless.
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Old 03-16-2011, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Houston
441 posts, read 1,157,437 times
Reputation: 468
There is no modern diesel factory in US. Import doesn't make sense since it have to compete with 20k cars made locally.


I own diesel car back in Europe (Skoda, similar to Jetta). There is a lot of diesel disadvantages as well:

- Very complex engine with turbo, dual-mass flywheel and other mechanically complicated gizmos that tend to pass away around 100k miles. Very expensive to repair, requires specialized shops. It's true for Ford/PSA HDI engines as well.
- Doesn't work during deep freezing temperatures. You need special fuel and it will freeze anyway (say -25F and below)
- Auxiliary cabin heating during winter is needed. Takes up to 1 hour to heat the cabin.
- Short trips are not healthy for the engine, see point 1.


I guess nobody wants to take a risk and build a 1billion engine factory, just to deal with EPA, high-sulfur fuel, not-experienced mechanics and all that jazz.

It might happen once fuel will cost closer to 8-9$ as it is in Europe now.

Last edited by meet4; 03-16-2011 at 04:02 PM.. Reason: added Fahrenheit unit
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Old 03-16-2011, 04:50 PM
 
8,317 posts, read 25,095,377 times
Reputation: 9065
Quote:
Originally Posted by meet4 View Post
There is no modern diesel factory in US. Import doesn't make sense since it have to compete with 20k cars made locally.


I own diesel car back in Europe (Skoda, similar to Jetta). There is a lot of diesel disadvantages as well:

- Very complex engine with turbo, dual-mass flywheel and other mechanically complicated gizmos that tend to pass away around 100k miles. Very expensive to repair, requires specialized shops. It's true for Ford/PSA HDI engines as well.
- Doesn't work during deep freezing temperatures. You need special fuel and it will freeze anyway (say -25F and below)
- Auxiliary cabin heating during winter is needed. Takes up to 1 hour to heat the cabin.
- Short trips are not healthy for the engine, see point 1.


I guess nobody wants to take a risk and build a 1billion engine factory, just to deal with EPA, high-sulfur fuel, not-experienced mechanics and all that jazz.

It might happen once fuel will cost closer to 8-9$ as it is in Europe now.
To answer some of the points above:

There are modern diesel engines produced in the US--most of them are the larger engines for pickups, etc. There are numerous plants that could likely be re-tooled to produce small diesel engines if they could be marketed here. Manufacturers are constantly producing new gasoline engine models that require re-tooling--they could just as well re-tool to produce diesels.

Modern diesel engines are no more mechanically or electronically complex than most modern gasoline engines. Nor do diesel engines require any more specialized equipment or shops to repair them than do most gasoline engines. There are simply few of those shops currently in the US because there are relatively few automotive diesels. An admitted problem is that there are not a lot of well-trained light diesel mechanics in the US--again, because of the relatively few automotive diesels running around this country. My experience with the diesels found in most US light trucks is that the engine will usually outlive the vehicle itself--200K-300K miles without major failures on the engine is not unusual. For this information, I rely on my own experience and that of my long-time mechanic who maintains numerous diesel vehicle fleets for local utility companies, local and federal government agencies in the area, as well as some private vehicle fleets.

It is true that untreated #2 diesel fuel will "gel" at temperatures between 0 and around 15 F. Winterized #2, depending on the amount of winterization, won't gel until around -10 to -20 F. In temperatures colder than that, #1 diesel will go down to close to -40. Relatively few places get in the US get colder than that--there, additives can lower the gel point some more. I used to live in an area that would see -40 to -50 in the winter--there were plenty of diesels in use there--the locals just knew how to properly fuel and care for them. In temperatures below -20 F., diesels usually need block heaters in order to be able to start reliably, but a lot of gasoline engines have starting troubles at those temperatures, as well.

Most modern electronically-controlled diesel engines do not need supplemental heating for the car interior in winter. Their engine control systems and cooling systems are designed to provide quick engine warmup, and to prevent excessive engine cooling when outside temperatures are frigid.

It is true--short trips are not healthy for a diesel engine, but nor are they for a gasoline engine.

I've driven both gasoline and diesel vehicles in all kinds of conditions from 100+ heat to -40 cold. I prefer diesels, and would drive an economical diesel car as a daily driver if there were more available in the US. I actually like the VW diesels, but I have had less than than pleasant experiences with their dealers on several occasions, so I've shied away from those.
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Old 03-16-2011, 05:55 PM
 
Location: North Cackelacky....in the hills.
19,556 posts, read 18,737,819 times
Reputation: 2496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc63 View Post
Hold up here. European taxation on larger engines and CO2 make small diesles extremely attractive. Using Europe and the UK as a barometer for what might work here is silly as their tax structure and regulatory structure created that demand. Notice as soon as Europeans get any money, they DO buy bigger vehicles, and get them over here and they tend to go hog wild on average (yes, there are still outliers, but the lure of cheap luxury cars, sports cars, and musclecars often overcomes that taxed-in frugality mentality).

If Europe and the UK didn't tax larger displacement cars heavily, you'd see a situation similar to here in the US.
They also get full size and luxury cars that are diesel powered,in the last episode of Top Gear Jeremy Clarkson was trying to choose between the V8 powered XF Jag and a diesel engined one....we sure as Hell aren't offered the same.

It would be nice if the diesel engined Ford Ranger or the Chrysler 300 with a diesel was offered here.

Quote:
Diesel

In Europe and Australia, the 300C is available with a 3.0 L diesel V6 engine (internal code OM642) developed by Mercedes-Benz. It produces 218 hp (163 kW) and 376 lbft (510 Nm) of torque and will soon be available with NOx BlueTec clean-diesel technology. Fuel economy for the 300C diesel is rated at 26.2 mpg-US (8.98 L/100 km; 31.5 mpg-imp) City, 42.8 mpg-US (5.50 L/100 km; 51.4 mpg-imp) Highway and 34.9 mpg-US (6.74 L/100 km; 41.9 mpg-imp) on the combined cycle. Acceleration from 0-60 mph happens in 7.9 seconds while the top speed remains the same as the petrol V6 (140 mph (230 km/h)).
Chrysler 300 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 03-16-2011, 05:59 PM
 
Location: Houston
441 posts, read 1,157,437 times
Reputation: 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzlover View Post
To answer some of the points above:

There are modern diesel engines produced in the US--most of them are the larger engines for pickups, etc. There are numerous plants that could likely be re-tooled to produce small diesel engines if they could be marketed here. Manufacturers are constantly producing new gasoline engine models that require re-tooling--they could just as well re-tool to produce diesels.

Modern diesel engines are no more mechanically or electronically complex than most modern gasoline engines. Nor do diesel engines require any more specialized equipment or shops to repair them than do most gasoline engines. There are simply few of those shops currently in the US because there are relatively few automotive diesels. An admitted problem is that there are not a lot of well-trained light diesel mechanics in the US--again, because of the relatively few automotive diesels running around this country. My experience with the diesels found in most US light trucks is that the engine will usually outlive the vehicle itself--200K-300K miles without major failures on the engine is not unusual. For this information, I rely on my own experience and that of my long-time mechanic who maintains numerous diesel vehicle fleets for local utility companies, local and federal government agencies in the area, as well as some private vehicle fleets.

It is true that untreated #2 diesel fuel will "gel" at temperatures between 0 and around 15 F. Winterized #2, depending on the amount of winterization, won't gel until around -10 to -20 F. In temperatures colder than that, #1 diesel will go down to close to -40. Relatively few places get in the US get colder than that--there, additives can lower the gel point some more. I used to live in an area that would see -40 to -50 in the winter--there were plenty of diesels in use there--the locals just knew how to properly fuel and care for them. In temperatures below -20 F., diesels usually need block heaters in order to be able to start reliably, but a lot of gasoline engines have starting troubles at those temperatures, as well.

Most modern electronically-controlled diesel engines do not need supplemental heating for the car interior in winter. Their engine control systems and cooling systems are designed to provide quick engine warmup, and to prevent excessive engine cooling when outside temperatures are frigid.

It is true--short trips are not healthy for a diesel engine, but nor are they for a gasoline engine.

I've driven both gasoline and diesel vehicles in all kinds of conditions from 100+ heat to -40 cold. I prefer diesels, and would drive an economical diesel car as a daily driver if there were more available in the US. I actually like the VW diesels, but I have had less than than pleasant experiences with their dealers on several occasions, so I've shied away from those.
It wasn't meant as a critique or dismissal of diesels. The fact that I own one back home is a proof that all above mentioned issues have been worked around with more or less success and it makes sense for some people to own one. I was trying to add some cons, since this thread sounds like there is some massive conspiracy and diesels will save the day...

My understanding from US market is that 15-30k cars are built with 1.8-3.0L (4cyl or V6) gasoline engines, only few with direct injection, even less with turbo or compressors. Those engines are proven, simple and reliable for 200k+ miles just with timing belt changes and maintenance could be done everywhere.

Gasoline engines with similar complexity as modern diesels e.g. Alfa Romeo 1.4L MultiAir Turbo, VW TFSI line etc., don't exist in that price bracket on US market... they appear at 35k++vehicles (EVO, BMW.. Audi etc.)
They could be produced and serviced here ofc, but not with massive investments that noone wants to make. It's simply not profitable right now to compete with 15k Corolla. With gasoline cost above and beyond 5$ it might be another story.

Your case is exactly what I am talking about. VW dealers and service sucks so hard that people don't consider their cars during the shopping process. In Europe VW is one of the most popular brand. It's because their service & dealership in Europe is well established and properly funded, so the cars are properly taken care of and thus reliable. I think if modern diesels will be introduced to the US with same approach, there will be a lot of headaches and disappointment.

Last edited by meet4; 03-16-2011 at 06:15 PM..
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Old 03-16-2011, 06:53 PM
 
Location: Somewhere in Kentucky
3,790 posts, read 7,562,005 times
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I have never owed a diesel, but is there a special type of oil they take or can you run simple synthetic Mobil 1?
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