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View Poll Results: Most improved Luxury Brand.
Cadillac 22 41.51%
Lincoln 5 9.43%
Infiniti 10 18.87%
Acura 1 1.89%
Jaguar 15 28.30%
Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Old 03-14-2011, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Birmingham
11,790 posts, read 12,632,569 times
Reputation: 10007

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWatson13 View Post
Actually what was the most significant was how Japan welcomed and followed William Demming's teachings on continuous improvement whereas American companies ignored him and shunned him. That is why Japan recovered and became such a business force so quickly after the war.
So you're telling me that blood, sweat tears and elbow grease is the only reason they (the Japanese) got to where they are today?

They do not at all benefit from a closed market that heavily tarriffs imports; A country that will not allow a foreign automaker to build a factory on their soil; them doing end arounds on unions by going to poor southern states who paid them in tax credits to build factories in their states; and a government that purposely attempts to keep the value of the yen lower then the dollar to favor imported goods (before building factories here became more feasible)?

What part of Demming's teachings included all that?

BTW, before you make an assumption about me, I currently do not own a GM product, but own three Japanese cars. My next vehicle choice is open to all manufacturers.
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Old 03-14-2011, 06:10 PM
 
Location: Central Texas
13,720 posts, read 24,608,598 times
Reputation: 9173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tourian View Post
So you're telling me that blood, sweat tears and elbow grease is the only reason they (the Japanese) got to where they are today?

They do not at all benefit from a closed market that heavily tarriffs imports; A country that will not allow a foreign automaker to build a factory on their soil; them doing end arounds on unions by going to poor southern states who paid them in tax credits to build factories in their states; and a government that purposely attempts to keep the value of the yen lower then the dollar to favor imported goods (before building factories here became more feasible)?

What part of Demming's teachings included all that?

BTW, before you make an assumption about me, I currently do not own a GM product, but own three Japanese cars. My next vehicle choice is open to all manufacturers.
I don't care where a vehicle is made as long as the country doesn't harbor or create terrorists.

Japanese carmakers benefit in their home market from the complex laws in place that limit foreign carmakers. Yet if you go to Japan you see many BMWs, Mercedes Benz, some Corvettes, and a few other non-Japanese brands. All are very expensive and highly coveted. None of the Germans make their cars in Japan.

American brands have lots of blame on themselves for being unsuccessful in Japan. They resist making right hand drive cars, most American vehicles have historically been too large and inefficient to do well in Japan. Who in their right might would have chosen the last generation Malibu over a Honda or Toyota?

As for labor in the US - well no carmaker entering the US market and opening a factory would want a UAW workforce. Honda opened the first foreign brand plant in Ohio many years ago.
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Old 03-14-2011, 09:09 PM
 
Location: a swanky suburb in my fancy pants
3,391 posts, read 7,317,087 times
Reputation: 1573
I voted for Jaguar. That car was really a trouble prone money pit until Ford bought it and reinvented it. Now that Ford has cut it loose again it will be interesting to see how they do. Also I don't understand why Ford couldn't do for Lincoln what they did for Jaguar. The Lincolns are a mess.
I don't think Cadillac really sank that low in quality before the current generation except in its looks.
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Old 03-14-2011, 09:18 PM
 
Location: WA
5,292 posts, read 20,697,476 times
Reputation: 5622
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryson662001 View Post
...
I don't think Cadillac really sank that low in quality before the current generation except in its looks.
I guess you never saw a Cadillac Cimarron.
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Old 03-14-2011, 09:47 PM
 
3,129 posts, read 5,141,528 times
Reputation: 1588
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tourian View Post
So you're telling me that blood, sweat tears and elbow grease is the only reason they (the Japanese) got to where they are today?

They do not at all benefit from a closed market that heavily tarriffs imports; A country that will not allow a foreign automaker to build a factory on their soil; them doing end arounds on unions by going to poor southern states who paid them in tax credits to build factories in their states; and a government that purposely attempts to keep the value of the yen lower then the dollar to favor imported goods (before building factories here became more feasible)?

What part of Demming's teachings included all that?

BTW, before you make an assumption about me, I currently do not own a GM product, but own three Japanese cars. My next vehicle choice is open to all manufacturers.
I'm not arguing against that. My post is factual and while we ignored Demming they did not. Is it any ****ing wonder why the American brands nearly all died while the Japanese brands have dominated? Before the real estate collapse Japan's rise was nothing short of spectacular no matter what the policies of the government were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffdano View Post
I don't care where a vehicle is made as long as the country doesn't harbor or create terrorists.

Japanese carmakers benefit in their home market from the complex laws in place that limit foreign carmakers. Yet if you go to Japan you see many BMWs, Mercedes Benz, some Corvettes, and a few other non-Japanese brands. All are very expensive and highly coveted. None of the Germans make their cars in Japan.

American brands have lots of blame on themselves for being unsuccessful in Japan. They resist making right hand drive cars, most American vehicles have historically been too large and inefficient to do well in Japan. Who in their right might would have chosen the last generation Malibu over a Honda or Toyota?

As for labor in the US - well no carmaker entering the US market and opening a factory would want a UAW workforce. Honda opened the first foreign brand plant in Ohio many years ago.
Exactly. The Japanese love buying luxury foreign goods and we all know Caddy, Buick, Lincoln were not what they wanted. They love German cars there and only Lexus sells well (well LExus is the only Japanese luxury brand there, Infinit/Acura don't exist there).

He's mad Japan didn't want to buy crappy cars in the 70s, 80s and 90s and basically until recently.
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Old 03-15-2011, 07:42 AM
 
14,777 posts, read 34,490,118 times
Reputation: 14278
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffdano View Post
I don't care where a vehicle is made as long as the country doesn't harbor or create terrorists.
Yeah, we'll just buy the stuff that actually makes our cars run from those guys.

Sorry, couldn't resist.
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Old 03-15-2011, 08:02 AM
 
Location: Central Texas
13,720 posts, read 24,608,598 times
Reputation: 9173
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryson662001 View Post
I voted for Jaguar. That car was really a trouble prone money pit until Ford bought it and reinvented it. Now that Ford has cut it loose again it will be interesting to see how they do. Also I don't understand why Ford couldn't do for Lincoln what they did for Jaguar. The Lincolns are a mess.
I don't think Cadillac really sank that low in quality before the current generation except in its looks.
I think Cadillac's low spot was not so much due to lack of quality but they had nothing anyone under 60 years old wanted to buy. Even the kinda-cool XLR was bought by old guys. I think the Escalade was the beginning of the makeover. Someone at GM got the bright idea that they needed vehicles that appealed to younger buyers. The DTS buyer was dying away, and the over 60 crowd with real money had switched to Lexus.

I despise the blingmobile Escalade but would happily drive a CTS-V.
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Old 03-15-2011, 08:18 AM
 
Location: Birmingham
11,790 posts, read 12,632,569 times
Reputation: 10007
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffdano View Post
Japanese carmakers benefit in their home market from the complex laws in place that limit foreign carmakers. Yet if you go to Japan you see many BMWs, Mercedes Benz, some Corvettes, and a few other non-Japanese brands. All are very expensive and highly coveted. None of the Germans make their cars in Japan.
I understand that there are rich people who will buy things just because they are exclusive. A few guys in Japan that pay the equivalent of me paying $150K for a five year old Corvette that was a grey market import means nothing to this conversation. BMWs and M-Bs are status symbols in a lot of places of the world.

Quote:
American brands have lots of blame on themselves for being unsuccessful in Japan. They resist making right hand drive cars, most American vehicles have historically been too large and inefficient to do well in Japan. Who in their right might would have chosen the last generation Malibu over a Honda or Toyota?
I guess you missed the part of my post entirely about how expensive it is for a foreign car manufacturer to profit in Japan. If you aren't content with the very small portion of rich people who buy status symbols, where does that leave you? Where does that leave Chevy Ford and Chrysler? What do they make to compete with the S-class and the 7-series or the E or the 5? Most Japanese people drive itty bitty 660cc micro cars - I'm sure you've seen footage off dozens of them getting washed up in the tsunami. How many "Japanese" American style cars in that mess did you notice? Very few Avalons, Maximas, 4Runners, Camrys, and Altimas like we're used too. The profit margin on those 660cc kei cars is RAZOR thin. If you have any kind of added tariff added on, and if you aren't allowed to build them close by, you aren't going to be competitive. And where else are going to sell them? American's don't buy cars like that. So your point of Americans not trying hard enough to be successful is very specious and is quite telling of the typical Detroit hater's lack of knowledge of the car business.

The D3 are not going to waste time developing a car that is specifically for the Japanese market only to have it end up costing thousands more then competitors on their home turf through no fault of their own because of an un level playing field. Sending over right hand drive Malibus, CTS, and Silverados isn't going to make a dent. There isn't enough profit margin in sub compact, compact or midsized cars to absorb the tariff and cost of building RHD versions either. Look up Hyundai's recent EXIT from their market because of unprofitability if you still believe only the "bumbling" Americans can't hack it in Japan.

Quote:
As for labor in the US - well no carmaker entering the US market and opening a factory would want a UAW workforce. Honda opened the first foreign brand plant in Ohio many years ago.
I'm not blaming them for taking an alternate route. I'm just aware of the fact that they got handouts to go in another direction, which people tend to ignore or are totally unaware of while being prejudiced against GM and Chrysler for doing the same thing.

Last edited by Tourian; 03-15-2011 at 09:25 AM..
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Old 03-15-2011, 08:36 AM
 
1,739 posts, read 4,820,576 times
Reputation: 705
Cadillac went down hill in the 80s with the 4100, 4-6-8, and cheap plastic tailight casings. Towards the end of the 80s Cadillac smartened up some by using Chevy motors, but then they came up with the Northstars. Cadillac also decided to make their sports car fwd and underpowered.

Are those plastic pieces reproduced and if so are any with better material?
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Old 03-15-2011, 08:41 AM
 
Location: Birmingham
11,790 posts, read 12,632,569 times
Reputation: 10007
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Continental View Post
Cadillac went down hill in the 80s with the 4100, 4-6-8, and cheap plastic tailight casings. Towards the end of the 80s Cadillac smartened up some by using Chevy motors, but then they came up with the Northstars. Cadillac also decided to make their sports car fwd and underpowered.

Are those plastic pieces reproduced and if so are any with better material?
1. The Northstar was a direct descendant of the Chevy ZR-1 engine - the first one, the LT5.

2. The Allante was billed as luxury roadster and became a good car when the Northstar was installed. However, they pulled the plug. The car's extensive production made it tough for it to profit. It was built in Italy and then finished in Detroit.

3. What plastic pieces are you referring to? The ones on the cars that haven't been produced since the 80's? Why does that matter? Do you see many early 70's Japanese cars still around? No, must of them have rusted away completely.

Last edited by Tourian; 03-15-2011 at 09:30 AM..
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