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Old 03-21-2011, 01:48 PM
 
Location: Birmingham
11,790 posts, read 12,635,810 times
Reputation: 10007

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donn2390 View Post
It's up to your taste if it looks classy or not, but engineers spend millions to design the proper geometry into a suspension, and changing any part of that geometry will adversely effect the vehicle. It may me slight depending on how much you raise the vehicle, but damage will definitely occur if you raise a vehicle, or make any deviations from the way the factory built it.
This is not completely true. Almost all production vehicles are a boatload of compromise. The engineers will know what they want to do to make it the best, then it has to pass safety regs, not immediately want to snap oversteer and kill ham fisted drivers (when it comes to sports cars), and get through the bean counters cut backs so it won't price itself out of the market.

Even very specialized low production vehicles like the Ford Raptor or Nissan GT-R have to have some compromises that could POSSIBLY be improved by a careful tuner who is willing to give up some gas mileage, comfort, noise levels/NVH and cold/hot start performance.
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Old 03-21-2011, 02:33 PM
 
8,317 posts, read 25,099,702 times
Reputation: 9065
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson513 View Post
But a truck with 31" tires just will not go anywhere unless it is paved and suitable for cars.
That's bullcrap. I've been 4-wheeling for decades on trails where excellent ground clearance is an absolute must. I've never had tires taller than 31"-32" and I do just fine. Quite honestly, the trails I'm talking about would scare the living hell out of most flatlanders--big rocks, deep mud, steep grades, sidehills, snow, huge dropoffs, etc. Like I said earlier, huge tires are only good for swamp running where flotation is a necessity.

Oh, and I've driven just about every flavor of 4WD out there--1/2 and 3/4-ton 4WD trucks, bobtail Jeeps and Scouts, SUV's, compact pickups--from most every manufacturer, including some that aren't around anymore. I also believe in the "elegant" Tread Lightly style of 4-wheeling, where you hopefully can't even tell where I've been.
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Old 03-21-2011, 02:45 PM
 
10,139 posts, read 22,409,188 times
Reputation: 8239
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzlover View Post
That's bullcrap. I've been 4-wheeling for decades on trails where excellent ground clearance is an absolute must. I've never had tires taller than 31"-32" and I do just fine. Quite honestly, the trails I'm talking about would scare the living hell out of most flatlanders--big rocks, deep mud, steep grades, sidehills, snow, huge dropoffs, etc. Like I said earlier, huge tires are only good for swamp running where flotation is a necessity.

Oh, and I've driven just about every flavor of 4WD out there--1/2 and 3/4-ton 4WD trucks, bobtail Jeeps and Scouts, SUV's, compact pickups--from most every manufacturer, including some that aren't around anymore. I also believe in the "elegant" Tread Lightly style of 4-wheeling, where you hopefully can't even tell where I've been.

You need to improve your reading skills. I said very clearly that I was referring to the Midwest. We have mud and slipperly slopes here. I have wheeled off road in the west and you have a different set of problems. Still, I am sure your local Colorado people would say it is you that has B_C claiming great success with 31" tires. Haha! If I posted your comment to Pirate 4X4 they would flame you until you were nothing but a cinder.

Why don't you start by showing me some wheeling photos of well equipped Colorado rigs off road with 31" tires. Haha!

Here's what a well equipped Jeep looks like - mine! Those are 37's on there.


Last edited by Wilson513; 03-21-2011 at 02:54 PM..
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Old 03-21-2011, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
24,718 posts, read 59,579,994 times
Reputation: 26823
Yes
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Old 03-21-2011, 04:04 PM
 
Location: Pikesville, MD
5,229 posts, read 11,484,624 times
Reputation: 4846
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geneyus View Post
I think LOWERING a truck is ridiculous. If you wanted it lower, you should have bought a car.
I lowered a number of hot rod trucks and minitrucks. I've also built hot rod cars and sports cars. When I built the trucks, if I WANTED a car, I'd have built one. Is being closedminded that much of a valuable goal to you?

I love lowered hot rod trucks and minitrucks:





http://www.jimmyscrc.com/Sections/Awardphotos/Truck-3.jpg (broken link)

And one of my own minitrucks:



Funny that my lowered trucks could do just as much truck stuff as they did before they were lowered... And much more than any of my cars (ever try to carry an ATV in the back of an MGB? Not fun)
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Old 03-21-2011, 04:07 PM
 
Location: Harrison, OH
910 posts, read 1,386,739 times
Reputation: 368
I love lifted trucks, so long as it's function and not jacked so high that the front driveshaft has to be disconnected.
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Old 03-21-2011, 04:14 PM
 
Location: United States
2,497 posts, read 6,234,488 times
Reputation: 2219
Quote:
Originally Posted by NHDave View Post
What an intelligent post, you must be full of usefull information
It was sarcasm. wake up.
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Old 03-21-2011, 04:31 PM
 
8,317 posts, read 25,099,702 times
Reputation: 9065
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson513 View Post
You need to improve your reading skills. I said very clearly that I was referring to the Midwest. We have mud and slipperly slopes here. I have wheeled off road in the west and you have a different set of problems. Still, I am sure your local Colorado people would say it is you that has B_C claiming great success with 31" tires. Haha! If I posted your comment to Pirate 4X4 they would flame you until you were nothing but a cinder.

Why don't you start by showing me some wheeling photos of well equipped Colorado rigs off road with 31" tires. Haha!

Here's what a well equipped Jeep looks like - mine! Those are 37's on there.
Well, considering that a lot of Colorado 4-wheelers started out in 4-cylinder stock Jeeps (like MB's and CJ-2A's) or stock 4WD pickups and took them places that most modern 4-wheelers couldn't even think about driving through, I don't think that huge tires are a prerequisite for 4-wheeling success. Driver skill is a lot more important. I've been 4-wheeling long enough--often as part of my work--to know the difference between the people who know how to drive a 4WD and the "posers" who think that some fancy vehicle with big tires makes them an "expert." In fact, in my 40 years of 4-wheeling, it has only been in the last 15 years that I've resorted to even a 3" lift on a 4WD--this because the vehicle only had less than 7" inches of ground clearance with a stock suspension. Having a vehicle with 35" or more tires does no good if it is rolled over on its side or top because its center of gravity is too high to traverse even a moderate sidehill slope. 31"-32" tires give a good combination of adequate ground clearance while retaining a low enough center of gravity for the vehicle to keep it relatively stable on sidehill slopes. That may not be an issue on flat terrain, but it sure as hell is where I drive a 4WD.

Those old Jeeps and 4WD pickups could go places that modern 4WD's just can't hack. Check out this advertising movie from 1957 for a stock Chevrolet 4WD pickup. No lift kit, no fat gigantic tires--just good drivers and a tough vehicle.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-4A5pFbuLU
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Old 03-21-2011, 04:49 PM
 
Location: Bellingham, WA
9,745 posts, read 13,652,155 times
Reputation: 14764
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc63 View Post


Mass produced machines can't be "ruined" by personalization. And if the factory made it best, then they could never improve on them either, and yet they do every year.

Mass produced cars/trucks are compromises of regulatory needs, manufacturing cost needs, and what the market will bear at the time. In most cases, they are merely starting points.

I know my own BMW 740iL is nto "ruined" by the lowering and custom wheels/tires. Or the small lip spoiler on the rear, custom exhaust etc.
Don't get me wrong, I think your BMW looks excellent. But to be perfectly honest, if I were looking for a used 7 series, I'd be skipping over any that were modified and looking for stock ones. From my experience, modified cars are, more often than not, made worse in some way or another over a stock car, even if they've been improved in other ways. Your BMW may look great and handle a bit better than stock, but since it's been lowered it's lost some ground clearance, probably doesn't ride quite as smoothly as a stock one, and I'm guessing the exhaust isn't as quiet as the original. That may be perfect for you, but it would keep me from buying it unless it was the deal of the century.

And do I even need to mention the hundreds of cars I see weekly that aren't as cleanly or properly modified as yours? I can't begin to count how many older Honda Civics I've seen that were once excellent, thrifty, reliable, dependable vehicles and have now been completely ruined with cheap body kits, bad paint, poorly done engine swaps, improper lowering, etc. Yes, the owners can do whatever they want to their vehicles, but it seems like a waste of a good vehicle when done so poorly. And I've ridden in a few cars like this, some which were even reasonably modified. Most were only marginally faster, if any, and most (including a CRX I used to own) handled and rode better with the stock tire size, especially in inclement weather conditions. I should also mention that I've modified my own cars in the past. I had a 72 El Camino that had quite a bit done to it. But in the end, I wish I had just left it alone and simply tried to maintain it in stock form. Overall it would have been a much better car that way, even though some of the mods did, in fact, improve certain facets.
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Old 03-21-2011, 07:32 PM
 
Location: Pikesville, MD
5,229 posts, read 11,484,624 times
Reputation: 4846
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamplight View Post
Don't get me wrong, I think your BMW looks excellent. But to be perfectly honest, if I were looking for a used 7 series, I'd be skipping over any that were modified and looking for stock ones. From my experience, modified cars are, more often than not, made worse in some way or another over a stock car, even if they've been improved in other ways. Your BMW may look great and handle a bit better than stock, but since it's been lowered it's lost some ground clearance, probably doesn't ride quite as smoothly as a stock one, and I'm guessing the exhaust isn't as quiet as the original. That may be perfect for you, but it would keep me from buying it unless it was the deal of the century.

And mine is worth more than it woudl be stock. it's also better taken care of than most stock ones. Adult enthusiast owners of cars tend to take better care of them than clueless peopel that bought them due to the badge.

the point is, all mass produced cars are compromises from the factory so what to you is "better" because the factory did it is, to people like me WORSE because it was commitee-ized crap that often wasn't what the original designers and engineers wanted anyhow. Even cars like the 7 were cost-cut and penny pinched and hit by regulations that meant they couldn't be what they were capable of being.

As an example, mine is more like the later Sport models which WERE factory. What would make mine bad but the factory identical "modifications" good, when the engineering is the same (seriously, spring and shock technology isn't that hard that an OEM factory is the only one that can get it right. An example is the fact that so many car companies are now using the aftermarket suppliers for their new performance cars, with brakes by Brembo, shocks by Bilstein, springs by Eibach, the same manufacturers we use to modify our cars, with the same engineering.)


And do I even need to mention the hundreds of cars I see weekly that aren't as cleanly or properly modified as yours? I can't begin to count how many older Honda Civics I've seen that were once excellent, thrifty, reliable, dependable vehicles and have now been completely ruined with cheap body kits, bad paint, poorly done engine swaps, improper lowering, etc. Yes, the owners can do whatever they want to their vehicles, but it seems like a waste of a good vehicle when done so poorly.[/quote]


99% of the time, by the time those owners got the cars, they were no longer good cars anyhow. Usually those are owned by people who bought them cheap becaue they were already mostly worn out. hell, even MY car was in that category, as it had 143k miles on it with no records of how it had been treated before I got it:




Quote:
And I've ridden in a few cars like this, some which were even reasonably modified. Most were only marginally faster, if any, and most (including a CRX I used to own) handled and rode better with the stock tire size, especially in inclement weather conditions. I should also mention that I've modified my own cars in the past. I had a 72 El Camino that had quite a bit done to it. But in the end, I wish I had just left it alone and simply tried to maintain it in stock form. Overall it would have been a much better car that way, even though some of the mods did, in fact, improve certain facets.
Please don't start with the mentality that if you can't do it, and a few poor people you see can't do it, that modding a car ONLY makes it worse. It's massively insulting to those of us (and there are hundreds of thousands of us, if not more) that are quite succesful at it.
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