U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Automotive
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-25-2011, 01:44 AM
 
Location: un peu près de Chicago
773 posts, read 2,002,283 times
Reputation: 515

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzlover View Post
We don't have these cars available in the United States because:

1. The US has idiotic diesel emission regulations that are different enough (not really better, just different) from Europe's that auto manufacturers do not want to spend the many millions of dollars necessary to get diesel vehicles EPA certified for the US.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12GO View Post
With the absolutely insane ppm requirements of the d@*m epa on diesel fuel and engines, ...
US and European standards on ULSD (Ultra-Low-Sulfur Diesel) fuel are pretty much the same (US: 15 ppm, Europe: 10 ppm). European diesels could meet current EPA requirements with very little modification. I expect to see more diesels in the US in the near future.

For an easy-to-read and up-to-date article:
Scientific American: Why European Diesel Cars Are Not Available in the U.S.
BTW, Fed taxes on gasoline = 18¢/gal; Fed taxes on diesel = 24¢/gal. Not much difference there.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-25-2011, 05:49 AM
 
Location: Pikesville, MD
5,229 posts, read 11,487,380 times
Reputation: 4846
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zea mays View Post
18¢/gal; Fed taxes on diesel = 24¢/gal. Not much difference there.

yes, but I can run my car on regular and it gets 30 mpg highway. The price differnce for that is MUCH larger, with diesel being 10-20 cents a gallon more ecpensive than premium, and premium being 20+ cents more expensive than regular. So at nearly half a buck more than regular, a 20 gallon fillup is $10 more at the same tank size.

And seriously, how can Amricanls NOT be "ignorant" about diesels? WE didnt' set fuel regulations that caused diesel to be high sulfur for so long so that little European diesels could be run here easily. WE didnt' make the tax structure in Europe that made theri fuel SO expensive compared to ours that small diesels became financially attractive. WE didnt' make Eurpean displacemetn taxes on gasoline engines that made tiney engines mreo financially atractive.

WE simply got big trucks, smoky old Mercedes, and crap GM car diesels. Since the average person is NOT a car enthusiasts, where were they supposed to get the day to day information that little diesels were getting cleaner ad quieter and faster? Even teh VW diesels that were being sold here as recently as 5 years ago could quickly turn to smokey, rattley, slow POS.

Sorry, but notice a differnce in these two pictures?





Our country is 300 miles wide, with much of the middle of it made up of long straight roads. I've driven across it a few times. Not much need for tuny urban cars here, which is why they are always a niche market and not the primary market, like in Europe.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-25-2011, 07:09 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
4,464 posts, read 9,634,495 times
Reputation: 2819
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zea mays View Post
It doesn't compute.

400 NM (295 lb-ft) @ 6000 rpm ≈ 340 hp
Torque and HP (max output) are two different things, which is why you'll see both figures posted and two different lines on a power graph.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-25-2011, 07:33 AM
 
Location: Bothell, Washington
2,680 posts, read 4,459,014 times
Reputation: 3622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc63 View Post
yes, but I can run my car on regular and it gets 30 mpg highway. The price differnce for that is MUCH larger, with diesel being 10-20 cents a gallon more ecpensive than premium, and premium being 20+ cents more expensive than regular. So at nearly half a buck more than regular, a 20 gallon fillup is $10 more at the same tank size.

And seriously, how can Amricanls NOT be "ignorant" about diesels? WE didnt' set fuel regulations that caused diesel to be high sulfur for so long so that little European diesels could be run here easily. WE didnt' make the tax structure in Europe that made theri fuel SO expensive compared to ours that small diesels became financially attractive. WE didnt' make Eurpean displacemetn taxes on gasoline engines that made tiney engines mreo financially atractive.

WE simply got big trucks, smoky old Mercedes, and crap GM car diesels. Since the average person is NOT a car enthusiasts, where were they supposed to get the day to day information that little diesels were getting cleaner ad quieter and faster? Even teh VW diesels that were being sold here as recently as 5 years ago could quickly turn to smokey, rattley, slow POS.

Sorry, but notice a differnce in these two pictures?





Our country is 300 miles wide, with much of the middle of it made up of long straight roads. I've driven across it a few times. Not much need for tuny urban cars here, which is why they are always a niche market and not the primary market, like in Europe.
That makes sense, but I guess I have started wondering if- even in those wide open spaces- people would be willing to drive cars that may be a bit more underpowered if it means getting 50+ MPG when gas gets up to $5 or more per gallon? My wife and I do a lot of driving when the weather is nice here in Washington, going out sight seeing to the coastal areas, near the mountains, etc. And once you get out of the city there really is a lot of wide open space as well- but I'd be happy to drive a car that takes longer to get from 0-60, even a car that is a bit smaller (not something like a Smart car, but the size of a Mazda 2 or Ford Fiesta would be just fine if it got the mileage I'm talking about).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-25-2011, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Pomona
1,955 posts, read 9,201,186 times
Reputation: 1531
Quote:
Originally Posted by jm31828 View Post
That makes sense, but I guess I have started wondering if- even in those wide open spaces- people would be willing to drive cars that may be a bit more underpowered if it means getting 50+ MPG when gas gets up to $5 or more per gallon?
Yep - that'd be nice. It's still going to be hard to change the public's perception about "slow" cars and small cars, though. In America, power and size sells, even if it's way more than necessary.

FWIW, my daily driver is a 4-cylinder S10. Its 0-60 time is measured on a sundial.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-25-2011, 09:42 AM
 
3,129 posts, read 5,143,332 times
Reputation: 1588
Its not regulations, automakers simply don't sell diesels here. They seem to be expanding but most consumers here do not want a diesel. The gas is more expensive in many cases and its harder to find.

Now in regards to taxes, yes Europe taxes small engines/diesels less.

American seems to prefer hybrids and with the new crop of low hp, fun hybrids its a good option compared to a diesel (Lexus CT, Honda CR-Z, etc)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-25-2011, 10:34 AM
 
8,317 posts, read 25,099,702 times
Reputation: 9065
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zea mays View Post
US and European standards on ULSD (Ultra-Low-Sulfur Diesel) fuel are pretty much the same (US: 15 ppm, Europe: 10 ppm). European diesels could meet current EPA requirements with very little modification. I expect to see more diesels in the US in the near future.

For an easy-to-read and up-to-date article:
Scientific American: Why European Diesel Cars Are Not Available in the U.S.
BTW, Fed taxes on gasoline = 18¢/gal; Fed taxes on diesel = 24¢/gal. Not much difference there.
Today, the emission issue is not with the fuel, it's with the US diesel emission standards. In Europe, the diesel emission standards are constructed to reduce CO2 emissions and to promote fuel efficiency. The US standards are biased toward reducing NOx emissions to the point of decreasing fuel efficiency and increasing CO2 emissions. While reducing NOx may be a laudable goal, it makes little sense when the end result means the vehicle is actually burning more fuel. The EPA regulations have always been myopic since they look only at tailpipe emissions and not at the total emissions made to produce the fuel, transport it, then burn it in a vehicle. The total process creates all kinds of air pollution--CO2, SO2, NOx, etc.--before the exhaust ever gets to the tailpipe. So, I would gladly trade a little more NOx at the tailpipe with the European emission standards for having availability of vehicles that drastically reduce fuel use.

Also, as far as driving small cars in large countries with miles upon miles of open road, the Canadians have been doing it for years (the leading car in sales there for several years has been the Honda Civic). And, as I stated earlier, at lot of very fuel-efficient and powerful diesel cars sold in Europe are the equivalent to many mid-size American cars.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-25-2011, 10:36 AM
 
Location: un peu près de Chicago
773 posts, read 2,002,283 times
Reputation: 515
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheViking85 View Post
Torque and HP (max output) are two different things, which is why you'll see both figures posted and two different lines on a power graph.
I'll believe 380 N-m torque @ 6200 rpm in a car engine only if you show me a link.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-25-2011, 10:40 AM
 
Location: un peu près de Chicago
773 posts, read 2,002,283 times
Reputation: 515
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzlover View Post
Today, the emission issue is not with the fuel, it's with the US diesel emission standards. ...
Not according to the article in Scientific American. Do you have a link to your assertion?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-25-2011, 10:48 AM
 
809 posts, read 894,131 times
Reputation: 991
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteboyslo View Post
We already have a few of them. Just look at all the B-segment vehicles like the Ford Fiesta, the Fiat 500 (coming soon), the Honda Fit, etc.

Mike
No we do not. There is a slew of cars that get 50-80 mpg that is just not offered here. There is one VW's that gets something like 80mpg, 120hp, and under $20k. They had it on Top Gear, was pretty awesome. I think that would sell here; IIRC it was in the Rabit hatch body, looked pretty good all things considered.

I drive a 15 year old, 1995 Acura Integra. I get just over 40mpg on the expressway, and about 33mpg in the city. It's still better then alot of the 'hybrid/econo' cars today. 140hp and turns pretty good, I dare say it would outperform alot of modern 'econo' cars in most all aspects. I really don't understand how things have stayed the way they are for so long.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Automotive
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top