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Old 09-17-2012, 07:12 AM
 
Location: Northern MN
3,869 posts, read 12,498,951 times
Reputation: 3540

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Your not even citing the correct info. Try recreational towing not info for towing a disabled(damaged) vehicle

Your point whatever it is is wrong and yes, ALL Ram 4x4's can be flat towed. a 2wd is not a 4x4.
My post is correct. on my 48,(stick) 74, 98, 99, 01 and 08 dodge 4x4 with automatics can all be flat towed
It implies nothing. Again go and reread my post.
I read yours and it does not apply to a Dodge 4x4. It may be true with your 2wd truck but what you post does not apply to a 4x4.
You can post it 100 times and it still will not apply to any of MY trucks or MY 4x4's.
The rest of the story
This is from the online owners manual you cite, maybe next time you can read it all and post ALL in the info other than just part of it. This is found on p284, p285 of it.

If I did what you said I WOULD damage my trucks.
Now, read what you should and can do, flat tow a Dodge ram 4x4 with a automatic or manual transmission.

http://www.ramtrucks.com/download/pd...DR_Ram_Gas.pdf
RECREATIONAL TOWING — 4–WHEEL DRIVE
VEHICLES (BEHIND MOTORHOME, ETC.)
CAUTION!
Internal damage to the transfer case will occur if a
front or rear wheel lift is used when recreational
towing.

NOTE: Both the Manual Shift and Electronic Shift
transfer cases must be shifted into Neutral (N) for
recreational towing. Automatic transmissions must be
placed in P (Park) position for recreational towing.
Manual transmissions must be left in gear (not in neutral)
for recreational towing. Refer below for the proper transfer
case Neutral shifting procedure for your vehicle.
Recreational Towing Procedure — Manual Shift
Transfer Case — If Equipped
Use the following procedure to prepare your vehicle for
recreational towing:
CAUTION!
It is necessary to follow these steps to be certain that
the transfer case is fully in N (NEUTRAL) before
recreational towing to prevent damage to internal
parts.
1. Bring the vehicle to a complete stop.
2. Shut OFF the engine.
3. Depress the brake pedal.
4. Shift automatic transmission to N (NEUTRAL), or
depress the clutch on manual transmissions.
5. Shift transfer case lever into N (NEUTRAL).
6. Start the engine.
7. Shift automatic transmission into Reverse (R).
8. Release brake pedal for five seconds and ensure that
there is no vehicle movement.
9. Repeat steps 7 and 8 with the transmission in Drive (D).
10. Shut OFF the engine and place the ignition key to the
unlocked OFF position.
11. Shift automatic transmission into P (PARK).
12. Apply the parking brake.
13. Attach vehicle to tow vehicle with tow bar.
14. Release the parking brake.
p284, p285






Quote:
Originally Posted by Trucker7 View Post
You didn't read it, didn't you? I'll post the same thing again. I'll even make it easier for you to find the relevant part. And it came from a 2004 Dodge RAM truck owner's manual, in case that you're wondering.



I know that SOME 4WD vehicles can be safely towed with their wheels on the ground, but not all. Maybe yours can, but your previous post (http://www.city-data.com/forum/autom...l#post26107978) implies that ALL RAMs 4x4 can be safely towed that way. That appears not to be the case.

Last edited by snofarmer; 09-17-2012 at 07:24 AM..
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Old 09-17-2012, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Windsor, Ontario, Canada
11,269 posts, read 12,474,250 times
Reputation: 13422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thegonagle View Post
So, a Jeep NP231 without a "true neutral" disengages from the transmission in neutral, but the axles are still locked together? Isn't it still bad for the drivetrain to flat tow such a beast? I'd think it can't be good unless the tires are EXACTLY equal in tread depth.

No it's okay, but yes, a bit confusing lol. All Jeeps (Wranglers anyway) are designed to be flat towed. I guess I should have been alittle more clear though. This only happens with the Jeep YJ. TJ's had a true neutral transfer case.

The NP231 found in a Jeep YJ connects the front and rear driveshaft together when it's shifted into neutral, and drivetrain windup is relieved by the CAD being disengaged.

I'll explain the CAD(central axle disconnect). On a YJ, the front left axle is solid. But the front right axle on a YJ is actually two peices. When you select 4x4, a vacuum operated fork slides a collar over the split in the axle, locking half of the shaft attatched to the differential, and half of the shaft attatched to the front right wheel together.
TJ's did away with this half shaft design with both front axles being solid. So they had to use a true neutral T/C. You could probably dolly a TJ, because everything disconnects in "N" on the T/C.

As far as I can tell, this is why you can't tow a YJ on a dolly without removing the rear drive shaft. The rear tires will be moving, spinning the rear drive shaft, which is connected in "N" to the front drive shaft. The front drive shaft turns the front differential, turing the solid front left axle, which tries to turn a stationary, strapped down, front left tire on a dolly. *kaboom* goes your transfer case.

Here's what my transfer case does in my 91 YJ......



2 hi
Transfer Case -> Transmission = engaged
Front axle to transfer Case = disengaged

N
Transfer Case -> Transmission = disengaged
Front axle to transfer Case = engaged

4 hi
Transfer Case -> Transmission = engaged
Front axle to transfer Case = engaged

4 lo
Transfer Case -> Transmission = engaged
Front axle to transfer Case = engaged



Did any of this help?

Last edited by Magnatomicflux; 09-17-2012 at 04:52 PM..
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Old 09-17-2012, 06:32 PM
 
Location: Scranton
1,384 posts, read 2,613,906 times
Reputation: 1639
Quote:
Originally Posted by snofarmer View Post
Your not even citing the correct info. Try recreational towing not info for towing a disabled(damaged) vehicle
<SNIP>


One thing that has me scratching my head now is, why does it make a difference, from the vehicle point of view, whether you're towing a disabled vehicle vs. a recreational tow. The only thing that I can think of, is that they're trying to cover their behind in case the breakdown is tranny/transfer case related.
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Old 09-17-2012, 07:19 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis
1,617 posts, read 4,525,773 times
Reputation: 1203
Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense.

I've read about those vacuum servos when I owned my '96 XJ (Little Cherokee), determined that the info didn't apply to my vehicle, and didn't think much about them after that.

I had that year's version of the "Command-Trac" part-time x'fer case in my XJ, but I don't know how it operated in neutral. Do you know off-hand whether it was true neutral on that vehicle? (Both times I ever had to call a tow truck, they sent a flat bed, so that never came up. I assume a flat bed is just standard procedure these days when they're picking up any kind of 4WD/AWD.)
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Old 09-17-2012, 08:28 PM
 
Location: Windsor, Ontario, Canada
11,269 posts, read 12,474,250 times
Reputation: 13422
You're welcome. I would think you had true neutral. They stopped putting my version of the 231 in Wranglers starting with the TJ...possibly the last YJ's as they were putting TJ parts in them. The last YJ's were 1995 and the first TJ's were 1997....so yeah, I would think so.


I think that too about the flatbeds. They probably don't want to get under there and disconnect a driveshaft, and they don't want to gamble on blowing up your drive train.
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Old 09-18-2012, 07:36 PM
 
2,632 posts, read 5,686,448 times
Reputation: 1393
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleet View Post
There is engine braking in a car with an automatic transmission, too. I can drive down some hills where I live (in my cars with an auto trans) in 2nd gear without having to use the brakes.
Thats not true engine braking my friend.

Only manuals can truly engine brake. As soon as you downshift you can slowly let your foot off the clutch for slow braking or you can rapidly let your foot off the clutch for fast engine braking.

Which is part of the increased control advantage manual has.

It's like the reverse of a brake pedal.

Aside from the obvious benefits like not having the parasactic loss that most conventional automatics have, being lighter then most convetional automatics, which results in a livilier more powerful fuel efficient vehicle.

You can do things like powershift, rev match, and double clutch.

You can launch your car EXACTLY how fast you want it to go. YOU CAN't DO that in an automatic.

Powering into and out of a turn just isnt the same in automatic. Most of the time the computer selects the gears for you in an auto. In a manual a takes a split second to select 2nd or 3rd let off the clutch and feel the torque.


Control, control, control. It almost feels like YOU ARE THE CAR.
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Old 09-18-2012, 07:38 PM
 
Location: Windsor, Ontario, Canada
11,269 posts, read 12,474,250 times
Reputation: 13422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veyron View Post
It almost feels like YOU ARE THE CAR.
Yup. Pretty much what I said. I love being part of the machine.
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Old 09-18-2012, 09:57 PM
 
2,632 posts, read 5,686,448 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnatomicflux View Post
Yup. Pretty much what I said. I love being part of the machine.
Same here. Now I feel like taking a night cruise.
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Old 09-18-2012, 10:37 PM
 
Location: Northridge/Porter Ranch, Calif.
22,151 posts, read 26,606,075 times
Reputation: 6441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veyron View Post
Thats not true engine braking my friend.

Only manuals can truly engine brake. As soon as you downshift you can slowly let your foot off the clutch for slow braking or you can rapidly let your foot off the clutch for fast engine braking.

Which is part of the increased control advantage manual has.

It's like the reverse of a brake pedal.

Aside from the obvious benefits like not having the parasactic loss that most conventional automatics have, being lighter then most convetional automatics, which results in a livilier more powerful fuel efficient vehicle.
Of course it's engine braking with an automatic. With my '60s and '70s cars, I can keep it in 2nd gear going down some inclines without having to use the brakes at all. If that is not engine braking, then what is it?

Quote:
You can do things like powershift, rev match, and double clutch.
But with an automatic, you can't grind the gears by accident or lug the engine. Also, you can get rubber when shifting, just like you can with a manual.

Quote:
You can launch your car EXACTLY how fast you want it to go. YOU CAN't DO that in an automatic.
I don't know how useful that is for regular driving. I do know that I have launched my cars at various rates. From gently starting from a stop to furiously burning rubber.

Quote:
Powering into and out of a turn just isnt the same in automatic. Most of the time the computer selects the gears for you in an auto. In a manual a takes a split second to select 2nd or 3rd let off the clutch and feel the torque.
My 3 classic cars don't have a computer-controlled automatic transmission. I can select the gears I want, too. As shown in the video I posted earlier in this thread. And believe me, going at about 20 mph in my Plymouth in 2nd gear, shifting it into 1st and using full throttle really lets you feel the torque!

Quote:
Control, control, control. It almost feels like YOU ARE THE CAR.
At the weekly car show last Friday, there was a 1965 Plymouth Belvedere with a 440 engine. Looks like it had mods done to it, including headers. Depending on the axle ratio, I would guess it runs low-13s or 12s in the 1/4 mile. But look at this... it has an automatic transmission! Maybe someone should tell the owner that he is not really in control of his car! Or that it's "not fun to drive" because it has an automatic.







Veyron, if you really think you should be in complete control of your car, did you disconnect the power steering and brakes from your car(s)? Did you change the power seats for manually-controlled seats?
I've been driving for 33 years and have always felt in control of my cars. I felt perfectly comfortable driving my former '66 Dodge Dart GT V-8 for the 16 years I drove it regularly. I did a lot of different driving in that car... winding out 1st gear to 45 mph, 2nd gear to 75 mph, a lot of burning rubber, even driving it in a rare snowfall, sliding sideways on wet streets, etc. Never hit anything due to "not feeling like I was a part of the car." I shifted that car manually more than I let it shift automatically!
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Old 09-19-2012, 06:56 AM
 
Location: Scranton
1,384 posts, read 2,613,906 times
Reputation: 1639
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleet View Post
Veyron, if you really think you should be in complete control of your car, did you disconnect the power steering and brakes from your car(s)? Did you change the power seats for manually-controlled seats?
I wished that power steering was still an option, instead of standard equipment. A car without p/s feels a lot better at speeds above 5 MPH. The only reason for p/s is for people that don't know that you're not supposed to turn the wheels with the car stopped. So, instead of wearing their arms, they're now wearing their balljoints, tie-rods, etc...

Power brakes became a necessity with the advent of disc brakes, which require more force to apply than drum brakes. This has nothing to do with having more or less control of the vehicle.

As for power seats, I personally don't like them. They take forever to adjust. I rather pull a lever and adjust the seat in a fraction of a second.
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