Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Yes. The Malibu and (now gone) Aura hybrid models (2.4/4A) get similar mileage to the 2.4/6A models which cost somewhat less. The only thing that made any sense at all for the hybrids was the tax credit, which I'm not sure if they still offer. The full size truck SUVs make a little more sense from a mileage standpoint, but the price difference between the electrified and non-electrified models buys a lot of gasoline.
thanks for your post...
Do you mean, you could report the purchase on your tax return?
A few people have hit around the answer, without really nailing it.
Toyota started hybrid development in the 90's and that research culminated in the Prius. The car was not profitable at first do to the R&D costs, but that situation was helped along by generous grants from the Japanese government (the Japanese government has always given large financial support to its car companies) that helped cover some of the money Toyota had laid out.
The key though is that Toyota patented the technology in all of its markets. By holding the patent to the entire "synergy drive" process, Toyota guaranteed that no one else could develop similar technology. It just so happens that there is really only one way to effectively make a "synergy drive" system and Toyota owns the rights.
Not to be spoil sports (and part of the conditions of the Japanese government grants), Toyota licenses the technology. The only restriction is that they will not allow it to be licensed into a dedicated line hybrid vehicle that would be a direct Prius competitor. It can only be licensed for use as a hybrid drivetrain in an existing volume vehicle.
The first company to license the tech was Nissan. The second was Ford when they realized that their own internal hybrid development efforts would conflict with Toyota's patents. By the licensing rules, the system can only be used in an existing volume vehicle, so the Altima, Fusion, Escape, etc. gained hybrid options.
Honda refused to license the technology and developed their IMA system. This is the reason Honda hybrids are "not as good" as Toyota hybrids. They can't use the same process, so they had to develop an inferior solution so that they could have their own dedicated hybrid, the Insight.
GM, Chrysler, Mercedes and BMW also did not want to license Toyota's tech and formed a partnership to develop an alternative system. The product of this was the two-mode hybrid system. The development of this was geared towards using it in trucks and large sedans which represented the bulk of sales and product for those companies. It was designed to be integrated as cheaply as possible and compatible with a wide range of engines.
GM has since gone a step further with the development of the Volt. GM's solution to the Volt and the patents they now hold on the process ensure that GM has a market hold on Volt style vehicles. This is the reason that Toyota will be struggling to develop a plug-in Prius to match what the Volt can do, as this time around, GM holds the rights to the most efficient way to do it.
Very good analysis...and I appreicate...however, I'm still not getting why American made hybrids are so much more expensive then Toyota or Honda? Actually all American made cars are so much more expensive. And, I understand, why the Prius has gone up in price of late, due to the destruction they've had, and until they get back up and running, I'm certain, they're costs might even be higher for a while, due to the money they are loosing. I'm guessing, b/c American made cars have not yet developed another way to make Hybrids due to the Japanese patten on hybrid drive trains...so, perhaps that is why American made cars are leaning towards electric? But still, they are more expensive, and I don't believe they would have to be, to be competitive.
I was also looking at the Fiesta, Insite. I've looked at the Volt, but it's way more then I want to spend. No more then 22 - 23, at the most. I just think it's a waste of money to spend more on a car....
I'm still leaning towards the Prius...b/c I've read the Insight is a very bumpy ride, and the Fiesta, I'm still looking at...however, to me, the Prius seems more economical all the way around? Honda, toyota, seem to run longer with less major repairs...
You said, Hybrids in general to not make a lot of economical sense? Why?
I'm guessing your saying that, b/c you expect gas prices to go down again, just like they have before in the past....and also, the maintenance on hybrids. However, the battery has a 10 year warrenty on it...so, that's not bad....would you be so kind as to explain your statement? thanks.
Creme
While I'm not Coldjensens, I don't think he would mind if I answered.
The first thing I would say is that you are absolutely correct about maintenance. A hybrid costs no more or less to maintain than a regular car and the battery even if it was to be the .001% of batteries that fail is covered under a rather generous hybrid warranty.
His statement really comes down to total ownership cost. You were considering a Prius. The Prius gets 51 city and 48 highway and averages 50 overall. The base Prius costs $23,520 and the model at that price point really doesn't contain anything really great as far as options go.
Compare that to a Ford Focus that gets 28 city, 40 highway and 32 combined and is comparably equipped to a base Prius at $17,500.
So, the Prius costs $5,750 more to buy than the Focus.
Over 100k miles using the combined average our Prius will use 2,000 gallons of gas and the Focus will use 3,125. At $5 a gallon the two cars are a virtual break even. Anything less than that and the Prius payout moves past 100k miles. Anything more and the Prius will pay off sooner.
Now, those numbers are based on the combined rating. If you bias to city driving, the Prius will destroy the Focus paying off in the 60k mile range with $5 a gallon gas. If you bias to highway driving, the Prius wouldn't pay off until almost 300k miles at $5 a gallon gas.
If you don't care for comparing cars with comparable specs and just picked something like a Toyota Yaris that bases at $10k less than a Prius, gas would need to be near $10 a gallon for the Prius to pay off in 100k miles.
Very good analysis...and I appreicate...however, I'm still not getting why American made hybrids are so much more expensive then Toyota or Honda?
You are looking at the dedicated hybrids like the Insight and Prius and then comparing them to say the Ford Fusion, which is a larger car in a different class. Compare a Ford Fusion Hybrid to a Toyota Camry Hybrid and you will see that comparably equipped the two cars are within $500 of each other. The Fusion bases higher, but it has more standard equipment. Also, remember that Ford is paying licensing fees to Toyota to use the technology.
Since they can't build a dedicated hybrid (do to the patents) they don't think they can justify the cost of adding the system to one of their regular small cars and instead focus on making them as efficient as possible on regular engines.
As for the Volt, it is an entirely different kind of car and hence the price. Don't think of it as another hybrid, think of it as an electric car with a backup engine.
Quote:
Actually all American made cars are so much more expensive.
Not true at all. At every model point across the board, all the major manufacturers have their competitive models priced within $1k or so of each other. In some cases the American cars are cheaper, in some cases the Japanese or Korean cars are cheaper.
Quote:
I'm guessing, b/c American made cars have not yet developed another way to make Hybrids due to the Japanese patten on hybrid drive trains...so, perhaps that is why American made cars are leaning towards electric? But still, they are more expensive, and I don't believe they would have to be, to be competitive.
It's not just that Toyota owns the patent to the hardware. They own the patent to the concept. It is impossible to build an efficient hybrid system without infringing on their process.
As for electric cars, all manufacturers are leaning that way in order to meet Federal mandates and earn CAFE credits. Basically, if a manufacturer builds electric cars they earn "credits" that allow them to build larger less efficient vehicles like large SUV's.
Many agree with you that the price of cars like the Volt need to come down to be competitive. Most would like to see it cost around $30k or so.
Quote:
I was also looking at the Fiesta, Insite. I've looked at the Volt, but it's way more then I want to spend. No more then 22 - 23, at the most. I just think it's a waste of money to spend more on a car....
Fiesta is a nice car and can be very customized with options. The new Focus is also a great choice and gets similar MPG to the Fiesta. Just remember for new at your price point, you are going to still be short on buying a Prius. They start at $23 and change and that's not counting any options you may want and tax, title, tag.
Quote:
I'm still leaning towards the Prius...b/c I've read the Insight is a very bumpy ride, and the Fiesta, I'm still looking at...however, to me, the Prius seems more economical all the way around? Honda, toyota, seem to run longer with less major repairs...
In total economics, see my earlier post. The Prius is good in that respect, but not as good as people believe when they crunch the numbers. If you have a primarily highway commute, there are much better options. If you are always in the city, than the Prius wins hands down.
As for the repairs, being in the industry I would tell you they all have their issues and problems with good models and bad. These days though I would say that a well maintained car from any of the major manufacturers is going to have a very similar life expectancy. I guess if I had to rank them from the big four, it would go Honda, then Ford, then Toyota (which is on the decline) and then GM.
NJgoat - I think you overstate Toyota's patent protection of hybrid drivetrains. Ford licensed some of Toyota's technology for the Escape hybrid.
The Fusion hybrid on the other hand appears to be a more original design and isn't referenced at all in searchs for "toyota hybrid patents."
Toyota and Ford have both been part of patent litigation with a company called Paice.
Toyota has many patents in the area, but not on the "concept" per se. Their patents make their implementation better, but the concept of hybrid powertrains is not patented. Honda's hybrids do not license Toyota technology.
I would not say that the Insight is a lesser hybrid. We are getting about 47 mpg combined on the Insight which is higher then its rated 41 mpg. That is over the course of a week.
OP if Hybrid is important Insight is about 22k new. If Hybrid not important get a non hyrid Fusion, they look great, run great and very reliable. Also a lot of bang for your buck in the base model.
NJgoat - I think you overstate Toyota's patent protection of hybrid drivetrains. Ford licensed some of Toyota's technology for the Escape hybrid.
The Fusion hybrid on the other hand appears to be a more original design and isn't referenced at all in searchs for "toyota hybrid patents."
Toyota and Ford have both been part of patent litigation with a company called Paice.
Toyota has many patents in the area, but not on the "concept" per se. Their patents make their implementation better, but the concept of hybrid powertrains is not patented. Honda's hybrids do not license Toyota technology.
Ford licenses 21 individual patents from Toyota relating to hybrid drive systems. In exchange Ford shared some of its own patented emissions reduction technology as well as payment of royalties.
The main part has to do with the e-CVT transmission that is produced by Aisin Seiki per the Toyota specs and is minority owned by Toyota. This transmission appears in both the Escape and Fusion as well as the Altima and all the assorted Toyota/Lexus hybrids.
It is the function of the transmission that allows the Toyota hybrid to work the way it does and achieve those levels of effeciency. Though the Ford design varies in some ways from the Toyota design relating to other areas, it was the transmission that Toyota owns the patents to that enable the whole thing to work and waht Ford realized they couldn't produce without violating the Toyota patent. Toyota owns not only the technical aspect, but the "conceptual" design of the transmission as well.
In the case of Nissan, they simply license the entire Toyota system lock, stock and barrel.
In the case of Honda, they use a different concept altogether replacing the vehicles flywheel with an electric motor. This system is simpler and cheaper as it retains the traditional engine and transmission, but also results in lower efficiency than the Toyota design. They went in this direction to avoid having to directly license the Toyota tech which would have meant giving up on a dedicated hybrid platform.
In regards to Paice it was found that the Toyota and Ford hybrid drive concepts were very similar to earlier patents held by Paice. While judges agreed that both Ford and Toyota developed their systems independently of the Paice patent, both companies agreed to license the earlier patents from Paice to settle any issues.
You are looking at the dedicated hybrids like the Insight and Prius and then comparing them to say the Ford Fusion, which is a larger car in a different class. Compare a Ford Fusion Hybrid to a Toyota Camry Hybrid and you will see that comparably equipped the two cars are within $500 of each other. The Fusion bases higher, but it has more standard equipment. Also, remember that Ford is paying licensing fees to Toyota to use the technology.
Since they can't build a dedicated hybrid (do to the patents) they don't think they can justify the cost of adding the system to one of their regular small cars and instead focus on making them as efficient as possible on regular engines.
As for the Volt, it is an entirely different kind of car and hence the price. Don't think of it as another hybrid, think of it as an electric car with a backup engine.
Not true at all. At every model point across the board, all the major manufacturers have their competitive models priced within $1k or so of each other. In some cases the American cars are cheaper, in some cases the Japanese or Korean cars are cheaper.
It's not just that Toyota owns the patent to the hardware. They own the patent to the concept. It is impossible to build an efficient hybrid system without infringing on their process.
As for electric cars, all manufacturers are leaning that way in order to meet Federal mandates and earn CAFE credits. Basically, if a manufacturer builds electric cars they earn "credits" that allow them to build larger less efficient vehicles like large SUV's.
Many agree with you that the price of cars like the Volt need to come down to be competitive. Most would like to see it cost around $30k or so.
Fiesta is a nice car and can be very customized with options. The new Focus is also a great choice and gets similar MPG to the Fiesta. Just remember for new at your price point, you are going to still be short on buying a Prius. They start at $23 and change and that's not counting any options you may want and tax, title, tag.
In total economics, see my earlier post. The Prius is good in that respect, but not as good as people believe when they crunch the numbers. If you have a primarily highway commute, there are much better options. If you are always in the city, than the Prius wins hands down.
As for the repairs, being in the industry I would tell you they all have their issues and problems with good models and bad. These days though I would say that a well maintained car from any of the major manufacturers is going to have a very similar life expectancy. I guess if I had to rank them from the big four, it would go Honda, then Ford, then Toyota (which is on the decline) and then GM.
yes, good maintenence is specifically important. I have a Grand Am, 4 cyld and that car has been extremely good to me. It's got just shy of 110,000 miles on it...and it's starting to tell me it needs new shocks....
so, I did get my money out of it...it was a brand new left over loaded model that I paid 13, 000 for 11 years ago. I wish I could get another, as they run forever...however, the Fiesta is quit impressive as far as the MPG...and I'm not after reading all your replys leaning away from the Prius...
so, on with the research...
I do so much appreciate you guys helping me with your input....thank you...
I would not say that the Insight is a lesser hybrid. We are getting about 47 mpg combined on the Insight which is higher then its rated 41 mpg. That is over the course of a week.
It's not that it is "lesser" it's just different and the Honda solution, while cheaper and easier to implement results in less efficiency than what could be achieved with the Toyota solution.
FWIW, your Insight weighs almost 350 pounds less than a Prius and gets worse MPG. That's a pretty strong case for "less efficient". Again, though, there is a very valid reason why Honda went the direction they did.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
