Why are used Mercedes/BMW/highend same price as Honda/Toyota? (manual transmission, Japanese)

[RomaniGypsy]

Originally Posted by NJBest

I have an S-Class. I bought it because I wanted it. Nothing more. Nothing less. It's my secondary vehicle.... not my daily driver. I test drove about a dozen cars before selecting it. It was the one that I liked the most that met my criteria.

You're analyzing it too much. If you want a car that does 0-60 in 6 seconds, then that's what you want. If you start considering outside factors then you're compromising. What kind of life is one where you have to compromise on your toys?

What kind of life is one where its quality is measured by the person's quantity or quality of toys?

Originally Posted by NJBest

That money vs time formula only works in the early part of your career. The longer you work, the larger the disconnect between time and money becomes. For example, I've been working for almost 10 years now... and my passive income far exceeds my earned income. So if I work 10 hours/week or if I work 40 hours/week, it has very little impact on my cashflow.

Well yippee for you. And let's hope that you don't run into a patch of bad luck like so many others have. I have plenty of experience with passive income and I have come to realize that it tends to come with two rather large monsters that are constantly breathing down your neck: 1) Passive income that is truly passive can disappear in a heartbeat due to situations and circumstances completely beyond your control. After all, having no direct involvement in it is the definition of "passive", right? (If this happens to you, you're going to find it difficult to pay for that new S-Class.) 2) Much passive income isn't truly passive... such as landlording income. That's a freaking BUSINESS... a business at which you have to work quite a bit... or hire someone else to work for you (which only helps you maintain / build your passive income if you can find someone who isn't out only for his own personal gain... good luck on that one)... passive income, my foot. The buck still stops with you... and to insure yourself against that is mightily expensive.

Originally Posted by NJBest

So yes, when you're right out of college and your only income is your salary, it makes no sense to splurge. However, later one when your money is working for you, you realize that you can afford to buy things which don't provide the best dollar value, but provide the best enjoyment value. That's the market these luxury brands are trying to grab.

And what does a $99,000 Mercedes S-Class have, which a $39,000 decked-out Chevrolet Impala SS doesn't have? (Besides that three-pointed star and much larger price tag?)

Originally Posted by NJBest

We live in a nation of abundance money. And we can't take it to the grave with us. I'm not saying spend it all. But taking 10% of it or so and just spending it for things you want, is not a sin.

However, taking that excess and giving it to someone who is in legitimate need, through no fault of his own, is infinitely better. I read something two days ago and it rang so true that I bought the decorative wall hanging upon which it was inscribed: "One hundred years from now, it will not matter what my bank account was, what car I drove or where I lived but rather the difference I made in another's life." I recognize that a lot of "needy" people (perhaps the majority) are "needy" because of stupid decisions they made in their lives (such as continuing to smoke and drink even though they can't otherwise afford FOOD)... but some people just get screwed by life. This is why there is a general backlash and hatred these days, toward people who indulge in excesses. The plight of hard-up Americans is so widely known that nobody is untouched by its message... and yet people will still go out and buy a Mercedes S-Class (which would carry an approximate payment of $1600/month if purchased with $0 down and no trade-in, assuming good credit and a 72-month loan term) instead of a base model Chevy Impala (whose purchase price is ~$25,000 and carries a monthly payment of about $400) if they want a large car. That extra $1200 per month could help out quite a few people in need, and the person would still have a large car... but yet instead of helping out, they go the route of buying a car that costs as much as an average house in many areas.

I don't know you, but I lived in Jersey for 25 years and I know "Jersey people" as well as anyone... so I have my ideas. However, I ask you this. When God looks at you on your day of judgment and asks you how your purchase and use of that Mercedes S-Class helped His children and His kingdom, what are you going to say to the Lord God Almighty in response?

You might think "man, I EARNED my money, I should be able to do what I want with my money!" And yes, that is true. However, consider this. You claim that most of your money is passive... meaning that others are earning it for you. Therefore, that argument wouldn't hold much water... and the question would again become "if others are earning it for you, why not use some of it for the greater good of this country in which we live?" Man, I'm not a socialist nor a liberal... I'm as conservative as they get... but I know the good feelings inherent in helping others. That's why I've never had an overabundance of money... whenever it's been a time of excess for me, I take the rest and help others with it or just plain give it away when I see a legitimate need. "One hundred years from now..."

Originally Posted by NJBest

My particular Benz was not available a few years ago.

The S-Class has been available for decades. The only truth this statement carries is inherent in the redesigns that it (and every car) undergoes periodically.

Originally Posted by NJBest

Those reliability charts are meaningless to someone like me. My other car (my daily driver) is a 2009 Nissan Altima Hybrid. I'll keep that car for a while. But my Benz, I'll only keep for a few years and upgrade. The people who buy the high-margin cars don't hold onto them for long enough for reliability to matter.

Then what's the point?

Originally Posted by NJBest

Who cares really? Everyone purchasing these cars know they're not going to last from the beginning. But they'll flip it for a new one before.

So you'll spend $40,000 in depreciation cost on a vehicle out of which you may get only as many miles before ditching it? A buck a mile? Man, I can't fathom that. They'd better be gold-plated miles.

Originally Posted by NJBest

You have to consider their target audience. These brands are not targeting the frugal customer.

Obviously.

[NJBest]

Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy

What kind of life is one where its quality is measured by the person's quantity or quality of toys?

There's many attributes to quality of life. Rewarding yourself with what you want is one aspect. Not the most important aspect, but why hold back on any one?

Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy

Well yippee for you. And let's hope that you don't run into a patch of bad luck like so many others have. I have plenty of experience with passive income and I have come to realize that it tends to come with two rather large monsters that are constantly breathing down your neck: 1) Passive income that is truly passive can disappear in a heartbeat due to situations and circumstances completely beyond your control. After all, having no direct involvement in it is the definition of "passive", right? (If this happens to you, you're going to find it difficult to pay for that new S-Class.) 2) Much passive income isn't truly passive... such as landlording income. That's a freaking BUSINESS... a business at which you have to work quite a bit... or hire someone else to work for you (which only helps you maintain / build your passive income if you can find someone who isn't out only for his own personal gain... good luck on that one)... passive income, my foot. The buck still stops with you... and to insure yourself against that is mightily expensive.

The S-Class was paid by check. I don't create debt on depreciating assets.

I just happens that I am a landlord.... but that's not a significant part of my income either (btw, rental properties are considered passive income, but that's besides the point). All of this personal stuff is besides the point. I'm doing okay and can afford what I purchased (btw, the benz was tax deductible.. thanks for your contribution). My point is that as you get older, your income isn't tied to your time as much.

Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy

And what does a $99,000 Mercedes S-Class have, which a $39,000 decked-out Chevrolet Impala SS doesn't have? (Besides that three-pointed star and much larger price tag?)

German engineering, higher quality leather, and it's the only car with a lithium-ion powered hybrid drivetrain. I have the S400 Hybrid :-).

Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy

However, taking that excess and giving it to someone who is in legitimate need, through no fault of his own, is infinitely better. I read something two days ago and it rang so true that I bought the decorative wall hanging upon which it was inscribed: "One hundred years from now, it will not matter what my bank account was, what car I drove or where I lived but rather the difference I made in another's life." I recognize that a lot of "needy" people (perhaps the majority) are "needy" because of stupid decisions they made in their lives (such as continuing to smoke and drink even though they can't otherwise afford FOOD)... but some people just get screwed by life. This is why there is a general backlash and hatred these days, toward people who indulge in excesses. The plight of hard-up Americans is so widely known that nobody is untouched by its message... and yet people will still go out and buy a Mercedes S-Class (which would carry an approximate payment of $1600/month if purchased with $0 down and no trade-in, assuming good credit and a 72-month loan term) instead of a base model Chevy Impala (whose purchase price is ~$25,000 and carries a monthly payment of about $400) if they want a large car. That extra $1200 per month could help out quite a few people in need, and the person would still have a large car... but yet instead of helping out, they go the route of buying a car that costs as much as an average house in many areas.

You're getting philosophical here and it doesn't relate to cars. But I take pride in the fact that I employ dozens of people and provide them with great salaries, benefits and friendship. I might not buy a poor man food or whatever you are getting at, but I do give back to society. I provide free daycare at my pre-schools for parents who are going through financial hardship. I donate my building to use for adult training programs to get people back to work. Sure, I don't buy a poor man lunch, but I do other things.

Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy

I don't know you, but I lived in Jersey for 25 years and I know "Jersey people" as well as anyone... so I have my ideas. However, I ask you this. When God looks at you on your day of judgment and asks you how your purchase and use of that Mercedes S-Class helped His children and His kingdom, what are you going to say to the Lord God Almighty in response?

I'm not a religious man. I don't worry about god. I worry about the people around me. The people in my town. I'm a community man.

Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy

You might think "man, I EARNED my money, I should be able to do what I want with my money!" And yes, that is true. However, consider this. You claim that most of your money is passive... meaning that others are earning it for you. Therefore, that argument wouldn't hold much water... and the question would again become "if others are earning it for you, why not use some of it for the greater good of this country in which we live?" Man, I'm not a socialist nor a liberal... I'm as conservative as they get... but I know the good feelings inherent in helping others. That's why I've never had an overabundance of money... whenever it's been a time of excess for me, I take the rest and help others with it or just plain give it away when I see a legitimate need. "One hundred years from now..."

You make a lot of assumptions about me just because I drive an above average car. I also drive an Altima, and a Ford Taurus Station Wagon. What other assumptions are you going to make about me?

Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy

The S-Class has been available for decades. The only truth this statement carries is inherent in the redesigns that it (and every car) undergoes periodically.

As I mentioned above, it has new engineering including being the first car with a lithium-ion powered hybrid drivetrain.

Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy

Then what's the point?



So you'll spend $40,000 in depreciation cost on a vehicle out of which you may get only as many miles before ditching it? A buck a mile? Man, I can't fathom that. They'd better be gold-plated miles.

It's not about money to me. You keep harping on the money. I didn't make the buying decision based on what it will do to my bottom line.

That money will go to some nice R&D in Germany, end it's way into some engineers pockets while also lining investors that will hopefully send their kids to my schools lining my pockets, and so on.

Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy

Obviously.

We're getting way offtopic with this.

The answer to the OP is because Mercedes and BMW depreciate quickly, and used Hondas and Toyotas are overpriced. A used Nissan or Ford is a better buy if you want the best bang for the buck.

[SpeedyAZ]

Originally Posted by MOKAN

Wrong, but there are a lot of those elements that are involved with Cadillac. I don't mind the styling of the Eldorado and STS and it would be nice if they had been well built - if so, I'd probably have bought one seeing as they are steals. BTW, I do like the buy-American and Texan sort of element of Cadillac's image. But it doesn't matter what kind of car a person drives. What matters is that you know what you like.

I like driving. I like cars. I don't buy new. I think it's a waste of money. I don't have any desire to absorb the incredible depreciation. However, I realize not everybody is willing knows enough about cars to be comfortable buying used and I under the appeal of having something brand new that only you have owned. But it doesn't make financial sense. And that's okay. It's also okay that the initial qualty/reliability, media-hype type reports are misleading and taken too seriously by some - it creates a better market for those of us who want to buy like-new used cars for a mere fraction of the cost of new. Even if you spend up spending $2000 to refresh a gently-used car with a new tierod assembly or what have you, tires, and a thorough tune-up and fluids change, you're still coming out ahead.

Every single of those elements can be associated with any brand as being "white trash" "ghetto" "old person". Old people drive both Cadillacs and Mercedes, trust me I live in the retirement capital of America. The "ghetto" thug-type can drive older Cadillacs or Mercedes as well, neither are expensive once they get to be about 10 years old.

Well built meaning? I don't know what you're getting at, I owned a 2002 Eldorado and it was a solid car. Leather was comfortable, dash looked nice, no scratches, ran fine...what do you mean "well built"? ANY car that's 10 years old is going to show wear and tear, it isn't limited to American models.

Texas element to the Cadillac image. Oh boy...this isn't the 1970's and you aren't Boss Hogg (I know, that's Georgia). What the heck "Texas" image are you referring to? I know the F-150 has a Texas edition but I've never heard of a Cadillac "Texas" edition?

And if a car is "gently used" you should, in no way, have to spend $2K to "fresh it up".

[SpeedyAZ]

German engineering, higher quality leather, and it's the only car with a lithium-ion powered hybrid drivetrain. I have the S400 Hybrid :-).

You do realize the "German engineering" bit is just a VERY clever and VERY successful marketing campaign right? These cars are mass-produced like every other automobile on the road, they may make use of a few higher-quality materials than some other vehicles but there isn't anything inherently special in their design.

German's used to add more technology to their vehicles to garner a higher price-tag but even that's changing as many lower-end manufacturers like Hyundai and Kia are adding this sort of tech.

Don't get me wrong, I like Mercedes and wouldn't mind having an S550 someday but I realize there isn't anything inherently special about it, just another vehicle.

[NJBest]

Originally Posted by SpeedyAZ

You do realize the "German engineering" bit is just a VERY clever and VERY successful marketing campaign right? These cars are mass-produced like every other automobile on the road, they may make use of a few higher-quality materials than some other vehicles but there isn't anything inherently special in their design.

German's used to add more technology to their vehicles to garner a higher price-tag but even that's changing as many lower-end manufacturers like Hyundai and Kia are adding this sort of tech.

Don't get me wrong, I like Mercedes and wouldn't mind having an S550 someday but I realize there isn't anything inherently special about it, just another vehicle.

Possibly. But it handles a lot better than my Nissan Altima at 110 MPH. The Benz is a business vehicle, it's mostly used for meeting with clients... and distance travel. The Altima is my daily commuter to the train station.

[SpeedyAZ]

Originally Posted by NJBest

Possibly. But it handles a lot better than my Nissan Altima at 110 MPH. The Benz is a business vehicle, it's mostly used for meeting with clients... and distance travel. The Altima is my daily commuter to the train station.

Oh I'm sure it does, the S550 is on my list of vehicles to someday own. I love the look, the interior...everything feels very "executive" in nature.

Some marketing campaigns are amazingly successful- Mercedes-Benz, Rolex, Apple, Oakley, etc. They each deliver some perceived excellence while labeling other products as inferior. It works well, I've bought into a couple marketing campaigns but you also have to buy into the product.

True exclusivity is out of the financial range of most consumers, truly exclusive products have no need to advertise but let the customers come to them- Bentley/Rolls Royce, Patek Phillipe, Audemars Piguet, etc.

[NJBest]

Originally Posted by SpeedyAZ

Oh I'm sure it does, the S550 is on my list of vehicles to someday own. I love the look, the interior...everything feels very "executive" in nature.

Some marketing campaigns are amazingly successful- Mercedes-Benz, Rolex, Apple, Oakley, etc. They each deliver some perceived excellence while labeling other products as inferior. It works well, I've bought into a couple marketing campaigns but you also have to buy into the product.

True exclusivity is out of the financial range of most consumers, truly exclusive products have no need to advertise but let the customers come to them- Bentley/Rolls Royce, Patek Phillipe, Audemars Piguet, etc.

Too bad Rolls or Bentley don't have a hybrid out there. 12mpg doesn't seem right to me.

[Felix C]

Since I am a descamisado who is not familar with BMW or Mercedes can someone advise what aspect of the maintenance for the models mentioned thus far is unduly expensive? Aside from the 928 engine mentioned earlier. I do not mean the supercharged engines as in the 335i which I presume require more investment.

I have owned a few U.S. designed pushrod performance V8s which should last, and have, 100,000+ miles with regular servicing which really is not expensive in terms of fluids, filters and cleaners.

[Merc63]

Originally Posted by SpeedyAZ

You do realize the "German engineering" bit is just a VERY clever and VERY successful marketing campaign right? These cars are mass-produced like every other automobile on the road, they may make use of a few higher-quality materials than some other vehicles but there isn't anything inherently special in their design.

Actually there is more involved in their design, especially looking at BMWs and their driving dynamics.

Don't get me wrong, I like Mercedes and wouldn't mind having an S550 someday but I realize there isn't anything inherently special about it, just another vehicle.

Sorry, a RWD BMW that has been developed with decades of racing behind it has some added engineering that a FWD Kia just doesn't have. Sorry.

I love my BMW, after owning over a hundred cars from most major manufacturers worldwide over the last 30 years. I've been involved with road racing and slalom racing and developing cars for those activities, I know what the factories have engineered in and I know what usually has to be done to make the cars successful. But above that, I know what companies have engineered in things like haptics and the feedback from the controls, and how the car reacts to those controls. The suspension design in a car like a BMW is far above that of, say, my Mustang or a typical Hyundai (even the RWD Genesis can't match it). Given enough grip, my Mustang can match an M3 on the track, but the feedback will not be there and give it bumpy surfaces and the BMW has it hands down. As well as having more precision in the way the steering reacts and gives feeback, How the brakes are easier to modulate and give better feedback as well as stopping faster more often.

And unlike some companies, even the basic BMW cars get the same suspension, just tuned for more comfort. Where other companies make basic suspensions and add parts to try to compensate when they make a performance variant.

Then there are the build qualit and solidity arguments. The BMW and Mercedes, for example, sound and feel completely different when you, say, close the doors. They have more seals and tighter tolerances, as well as more solid hinges and latches.

All these things add up to extra cost and extra worth to peopel who value them. I value the suspension dynamics that BMW builds into even the least of its cars. I value the steering and braking fedback that are engineered into them. When I went and picked up my then 8 year old BMW, I drove a new Sonata rental with only 2000 miles on it. The BMW was vastly more solid, with vastly better feedback and handling dynamics. And it had 143k miles on it at the time.

Buying new means getting the latest safety and environmental tech as well as a warranty. It CAN have to do with snob appeal, if that's what the buyer wants, but it's not all of it, and it's not all buyers. And to say that they are "just another vehicle" is ignorance in the extreme. And worse, as a car guy, it's WILLFUL ignorance just so you can insult a certain segment of buyers.

[Merc63]

Originally Posted by Felix C

I have owned a few U.S. designed pushrod performance V8s which should last, and have, 100,000+ miles with regular servicing which really is not expensive in terms of fluids, filters and cleaners.

My BMW made it to 185k miles with very little more than basic maitnence (I had to change the water pump at 170k, and recently did the valley pan gasket and intake manifold gaskets as they got old and hard and started leaking).