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Old 02-03-2012, 10:39 PM
 
880 posts, read 405,045 times
Reputation: 459
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzlover View Post
Gee, fancy that a study paid for by an industry association promoting ethanol would show results favoring that industry. Can we say "biased"?

Now, maybe you should consider that all that corn grown to make ethanol was fertilized by fertilizer made by burning huge quantities of natural gas using the Haber-Bosch process--you neglect to mention that little nugget. You also neglect to mention that cultivation of corn requires copious amounts of diesel fuel--of which, thanks to our low-sulfur diesel requirements, we must import a considerable percentage. (Wonder why the US is exporting diesel fuel these days? Because many of our refineries are incapable of producing low-sulfur diesel fuel, so we have to export high-sulfur diesel fuel while we pay a premium to import more expensive low-sulfur diesel fuel.)

Add those things into the mix, and it becomes more clear why ethanol from corn is an energy "loser." Sure, the industry created jobs. Many industries do when a ton of taxpayer money is thrown their way--but those are offset by jobs lost elsewhere when tax or debt burdens grow.

I'm all for reducing our dependence on foreign oil--in fact, I'm in favor of lowering our oil usage in general, but ethanol is not the efficient way to do it. The proof is in the pudding--as soon as the ethanol subsidy went away and people had to pay the REAL, unsubsidized cost of ethanol at the pump, ethanol-blended fuels surpassed regular "no-ethanol" gasoline in price. If ethanol really is cost-effective, it won't need a subsidy. If it's not, then it should go away.
You got it backwards. Gasoline prices are shooting up over 45 cents per gallon, due to lack of competition, ethanol prices are going down. Crude oil is heavily subsidized & we pay a heavy price for access to it through our military & oil wars to keep it flowing.

Cost of securing our access to Middle East oil = $0.56 a gallon.
Cost of wars caused by securing our access to Middle East oil = $1.13 a gallon.
Total military subsidizes per gallon of gasoline = $1.69 a gallon.

You are using old data to skew input energy. No-Till farming uses 1/4th the fertilizer, fuel & pesticides as conventional farming. Ethanol Plants use waste heat from power plants to heat mash. The EROEI for ethanol is now 3:1. That is the same as Canada's tar sands. Today the USA produces corn ethanol cheaper than Brazil produces sugar cane ethanol. The USA is the worlds largest ethanol producer.
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Old 02-04-2012, 12:07 PM
 
7,993 posts, read 15,556,390 times
Reputation: 8000
Quote:
Originally Posted by KrazeeKrewe View Post
You got it backwards. Gasoline prices are shooting up over 45 cents per gallon, due to lack of competition, ethanol prices are going down. Crude oil is heavily subsidized & we pay a heavy price for access to it through our military & oil wars to keep it flowing.

Cost of securing our access to Middle East oil = $0.56 a gallon.
Cost of wars caused by securing our access to Middle East oil = $1.13 a gallon.
Total military subsidizes per gallon of gasoline = $1.69 a gallon.

You are using old data to skew input energy. No-Till farming uses 1/4th the fertilizer, fuel & pesticides as conventional farming. Ethanol Plants use waste heat from power plants to heat mash. The EROEI for ethanol is now 3:1. That is the same as Canada's tar sands. Today the USA produces corn ethanol cheaper than Brazil produces sugar cane ethanol. The USA is the worlds largest ethanol producer.
So, maybe you could explain why E85 now costs more at the pump (despite having far lower energy content per gallon than pure gasoline) than does regular gas in many parts of the country?

I totally agree with you about the hidden costs of petroleum (defense, environmental remediation, etc.) being buried in our tax bills and national debt, instead of being paid for at the pump. I'd be all for raising the fuel tax to reflect those true costs, with an offsetting decrease in general taxes and government borrowing now used to pay those costs. If Americans had to pay the true cost of the fuel they use at the pump, we would see a huge decrease in petroleum consumption,declining petroluem imports, and real conservation measures being put in place, instead of a bunch of "happy talk" about it--the latter being about all we're seeing now.

Last edited by jazzlover; 02-04-2012 at 12:25 PM..
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Old 02-15-2012, 09:15 AM
 
188 posts, read 113,029 times
Reputation: 123
Here it comes....

Oil now up over $101/barrel.
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Old 02-15-2012, 11:41 AM
 
Location: Duarte, CA
4,998 posts, read 4,990,568 times
Reputation: 3215
You know people are panicking over high gas prices when you go to the local Chevron and find the Techron fuel injector cleaner section empty.. just when you're due for your annual fuel system cleaning.
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Old 02-18-2012, 09:53 PM
 
5,247 posts, read 2,247,149 times
Reputation: 2563
$4.05/gallon here in Los Angeles, and heading in that direction nationwide.....
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Old 02-18-2012, 09:57 PM
 
Location: Colorado
967 posts, read 461,921 times
Reputation: 922
Quote:
So, maybe you could explain why E85 now costs more at the pump (despite having far lower energy content per gallon than pure gasoline) than does regular gas in many parts of the country?
The gummint ended the subsidies and tax breaks for Ethanol production and consumption that were keeping the price low.
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Old 02-18-2012, 10:09 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
1,786 posts, read 2,972,955 times
Reputation: 1386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv101 View Post
$4.05/gallon here in Los Angeles, and heading in that direction nationwide.....
Wow, crazy. I just paid $3.01 here in Denver.
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Old 02-18-2012, 10:13 PM
 
20,293 posts, read 15,462,370 times
Reputation: 9369
$3.33 here. Looking forward to it hitting $5.12.
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Old 02-18-2012, 11:38 PM
 
942 posts, read 802,358 times
Reputation: 602
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandpa Pipes View Post
If you want to prepare for higher fuel prices ,as well as everything else , now would be a good time to start adjusting your lifestyle.

$5 A Gallon For Gas? It Could Happen In 2012 CBS Baltimore

Just so you know.........
Already did years ago, bought an 07 bluetec mercedes. Corolla fuel mileage, E500 performance and no batteries.
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Old 02-20-2012, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Yucaipa, California
8,315 posts, read 10,063,183 times
Reputation: 4590
A oil refinery in canada blew up last week causing gas to increase once again in ca. The refinery supplies alot of gas to ca. I expect prices to exceed the 2008 prices & 5 bucks a gal is a reality.
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