Ford's new Lincoln MKZ signals styling change for the brand

[SpeedyAZ]

Originally Posted by robrobrob

In my area I don't see many Lincoln cars. I see a lot more Navigators. Part of it may be that I live in Pittsburgh so no one wants a rear wheel drive car so there goes the Town Car. The MKS is overpriced.

I agree with the earlier post that people with serious money aren't driving Lincolns.

I'd agree that most younger (let's say...under 55), wealthy professionals aren't taking a serious look at buying a Lincoln. BUT I would disagree that older retirees with serious money aren't driving Lincolns. It's more anecdotal evidence than anything but I live in the land of wealthy retirees and PLENTY of them still drive a Town Car. As you get older, you really don't have anyone to impress with what you're driving so you usually look to buy something you're comfortable in and Lincoln does offer that if nothing else.

I used to sell real estate back in the early 00's and I primarily sold real estate to an older clientele. It would probably shock you at how many of them drove Cadillac Deville's (remember this was early 00's) as well as Town Cars. They wrote a check for a million dollar+ home, but could care less about impressing anyone with a high-dollar Mercedes.

The younger, nouveau rich tend to be much more concerned about having a "status symbol" car than the older generation. Some of the older executives at my firm drive 4-5 year old Cadillac's while the youngest and lowliest employees on the totem pole drive BMW's and Mercedes. If you're the boss and pulling in 7 figures a year, who do you really have to impress?

[NJGOAT]

Originally Posted by SpeedyAZ

Lincoln really does need an EXCLUSIVE platform if they're going to compete successfully in the luxury market. Cadillac has the Sigma II which underpins the CTS/CTS-V; Lincoln should develop something along the lines of that size of chassis and keep it unique to the Lincoln brand. I'm not sure what it costs to develop a unique chassis, if someone has the answer fill me in!

I don't think the problem is just the platform though, the Ford D3 platform (current Taurus/MKS) could be adequate if Lincoln could just design a vehicle people wanted to buy! Not some rebadged job but something with a unique design that either harkens back to the 1960's Continental for a retro look (sort of like what the current Mustang does) or something that is a nod to Cadillac's Art and Science approach. I don't think executive team at Lincoln really knows what to do with the brand which is why they're creating these vehicles which really have no unique or interesting styling cues.

I think an AWD, modern-day interpretation of a 1964 Continental with suicide doors would be appealing to the current market. If it meets high enough standards, it should be able to compete with the current Chrysler 300 and upcoming Cadillac XTS.

I was not able to find any concrete numbers, but the total cost of developing just the original Sigma platform that underpinned the 2002 CTS was in the $5 billion range with another $1 billion into creating Sigma II. So, development of a dedicated chassis really is a massive undertaking and takes between 4 and 8 years. In the case of Sigma it took about 6 with development beginning in the mid-90's at Holden.

The cost to simply update existing platforms to make them "new" like is done with things like the F150 generally cost about $1 billion. The cost of producing a single "new" model off the bones of an existing one is in the range of $400-$600 million. The cost of the average mid-cycle "freshening" is in the $250-$400 million range. So, when Ford says they are investing $1 billion in Lincoln, that's about enough money to redesign two or three models...MKZ, MKS, MKX.

When using an existing platform, you get into the issue of constant versus non-constant elements. The more non-constant elements you add, the greater the cost. Something as simple as say, suicide doors, like people often say they want, could take an investment of $300 million to make a reality based on the platforms restrictions.

This is why manufacturers try to build a platform that is flexible and that can be used on as many models as possible to spread costs. They also need to work to make sure each of the elements needed on certain vehicles can be accomodated.

Again, I don't disgree with ANYTHING folks are saying about Lincoln's issues and what they SHOULD be doing. Just pointing out that they really don't have the money to do it right.

[Cletus Awreetus-Awrightus]

Originally Posted by NJGOAT

I was not able to find any concrete numbers, but the total cost of developing just the original Sigma platform that underpinned the 2002 CTS was in the $5 billion range with another $1 billion into creating Sigma II. So, development of a dedicated chassis really is a massive undertaking and takes between 4 and 8 years. In the case of Sigma it took about 6 with development beginning in the mid-90's at Holden.

The cost to simply update existing platforms to make them "new" like is done with things like the F150 generally cost about $1 billion. The cost of producing a single "new" model off the bones of an existing one is in the range of $400-$600 million. The cost of the average mid-cycle "freshening" is in the $250-$400 million range. So, when Ford says they are investing $1 billion in Lincoln, that's about enough money to redesign two or three models...MKZ, MKS, MKX.

When using an existing platform, you get into the issue of constant versus non-constant elements. The more non-constant elements you add, the greater the cost. Something as simple as say, suicide doors, like people often say they want, could take an investment of $300 million to make a reality based on the platforms restrictions.

This is why manufacturers try to build a platform that is flexible and that can be used on as many models as possible to spread costs. They also need to work to make sure each of the elements needed on certain vehicles can be accomodated.

Again, I don't disgree with ANYTHING folks are saying about Lincoln's issues and what they SHOULD be doing. Just pointing out that they really don't have the money to do it right.

what was wrong with DEW98? i feel like we've been down this road before, with lincoln.

[43north87west]

Looks very nice--not very distinctive.

[asubram3]

Originally Posted by NJGOAT

There is an interesting aside to the Lincoln debate and that is money. GM poured well over $10 billion into reinventing Cadillac and that was pre-bailout. Ford never had the money to do anything with Lincoln or Mercury for the longest time. Then they mortgaged everything to survive the downturn without needing a direct bailout. Yes, they came out swinging, but they still don't have the money to invest in Lincoln to reinvent the brand "overnight" like GM did with Cadillac. Yes, in the car world, "overnight" is pretty much a decade.

Ford axed Mercury as they simply couldn't afford to keep it alive and then they focused on Lincoln, which to date they have dedicated about $1 billion to. That is less than one tenth of the money GM poured into Cadillac to get to where they are now. The main issue for Lincoln is that they don't have a proper RWD luxury chassis to pull from and it would cost a HUGE amount of money to build one the way GM did for Cadillac. Yes, Ford has the Mustang chassis and the Aus Falcon chassis, but neither one of them are really suited for use in the luxury market. The Mustang chassis while based on DEW98 was never designed to use an independent suspension. The Aus Falcon chassis while having been updated has remained virtually the same since the 1990's.

The breakthrough for Lincoln in this department is the rumor that Ford intends to build a global, flexible RWD chassis that could underpin the Mustang, Falcon and Lincoln vehicles in 2016. This is the only way that Ford can afford to develop the platforms Lincoln needs to compete. However, the jury is still out as there is a strong counter rumor that Ford intends to axe all RWD development with the exception of Mustang (which will ride on S197 for God knows how long) and simply use the next-gen Taurus platform for all large cars, including the Falcon.

Basically, Ford doesn't have the money to do Lincoln right.

This is very much the case, allowing Ford wants Lincoln to compete with Cadillac/Lexus/Mercedes/BMW. But from their current efforts, it seems to be that they are aiming at Acura/Buick/Volvo. None of their sedans have a V8 available. Can they lure a few buyers from Acura/Buick?

[SpeedyAZ]

Originally Posted by asubram3

This is very much the case, allowing Ford wants Lincoln to compete with Cadillac/Lexus/Mercedes/BMW. But from their current efforts, it seems to be that they are aiming at Acura/Buick/Volvo. None of their sedans have a V8 available. Can they lure a few buyers from Acura/Buick?

Maybe they could lure a few from Acura/Volvo but Buick is definitely on the right path to become a very strong contender in the near-luxury segment and not just with the senior citizen market. Right now I'd consider the Buick brand to have a much better presence in the market than Lincoln as far as attracting new and young buyers.

[NJGOAT]

Originally Posted by Cletus Awreetus-Awrightus

what was wrong with DEW98? i feel like we've been down this road before, with lincoln.

DEW98 is really the story of the cluster-flop that was the Premier Automotive Group. Not getting into the idiotic business decisions and competition within that group and Ford at the time (as well as the fact Ford was nearly bankrupt then) there are a few reasons why DEW98 isn't a good option:

1. The platform is not flexible at all. It was designed to work in a very specific class of cars (midsize) and cannot be adapted easily to others without major cost.

2. The platform is RWD only and cannot be adapted to use AWD, something offered by every other marque.

3. The platform is now 17 years old from when initial development started and while Jag still uses it for the XF, they have made many changes that are Jag specific.

4. The platform is very expensive to produce and Ford no longer owns any plants capable of building it. The XF is built in England and the Wixom plant that built the LS has been closed and stripped since 2007.

Overall, the main issue with DEW98 is that Ford didn't have the money to do it right and make the platform so that it could be easily adapted to different vehicle classes. A lot of this was do to internal bickering in PAG over Lincoln vs. Jaguar.

If you look at the luxury marques out there and how they stratify their platforms, multiple vehicles are based off a single chassis. At this point, DEW98 can't get the job done, so Ford is left needing to develop a truly global RWD/AWD architecture so they have flexibility and can hit certain price points. The problem is, that costs a lot of money to do right.

Originally Posted by asubram3

This is very much the case, allowing Ford wants Lincoln to compete with Cadillac/Lexus/Mercedes/BMW. But from their current efforts, it seems to be that they are aiming at Acura/Buick/Volvo. None of their sedans have a V8 available. Can they lure a few buyers from Acura/Buick?

I think Ford is doing what they can to keep Lincoln alive and pushing enough volume through to keep the dealers open. The Lincoln that exists today is not the Lincoln that Ford wants, but they are doing what they can with what they have. I honestly don't think their cars are good enough to conquer NEW buyers from the other brands. Where they are very competitive is CPO, but that doesn't really help Ford, but the dealers love it.

[robrobrob]

Originally Posted by SpeedyAZ

I'd agree that most younger (let's say...under 55), wealthy professionals aren't taking a serious look at buying a Lincoln. BUT I would disagree that older retirees with serious money aren't driving Lincolns. It's more anecdotal evidence than anything but I live in the land of wealthy retirees and PLENTY of them still drive a Town Car. As you get older, you really don't have anyone to impress with what you're driving so you usually look to buy something you're comfortable in and Lincoln does offer that if nothing else.

I used to sell real estate back in the early 00's and I primarily sold real estate to an older clientele. It would probably shock you at how many of them drove Cadillac Deville's (remember this was early 00's) as well as Town Cars. They wrote a check for a million dollar+ home, but could care less about impressing anyone with a high-dollar Mercedes.

The younger, nouveau rich tend to be much more concerned about having a "status symbol" car than the older generation. Some of the older executives at my firm drive 4-5 year old Cadillac's while the youngest and lowliest employees on the totem pole drive BMW's and Mercedes. If you're the boss and pulling in 7 figures a year, who do you really have to impress?

I live in Pittsburgh, which has it fair share of old timers, and I can go weeks without seeing a Town Car. I live right by a very wealthy area and honeslty they just aren't around. My take is that no one wants RWD here. Most of the BMWs and MB are AWD.

[vegaspilgrim]

Originally Posted by robrobrob

I live in Pittsburgh, which has it fair share of old timers, and I can go weeks without seeing a Town Car. I live right by a very wealthy area and honeslty they just aren't around. My take is that no one wants RWD here. Most of the BMWs and MB are AWD.

I agree with you that Lincoln Towncars are pretty rare these days. However, in parts of the country that get no snow, especially Phoenix, Las Vegas, and California (both southern and northern) RWD vehicles are MUCH more popular than in snow belt areas. In SoCal AWD vehicles are actually pretty rare.