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Old 05-16-2013, 08:27 PM
 
Location: Earth
4,237 posts, read 24,733,588 times
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Thought I'd throw this out there...ever since selling my turbo Buick, I've got the itch to get into forced induction again. I'll admit, boost is like crack....you get your first taste, then you want some more.

Anyways I've considered throwing a supercharger on my 69 Nova's 350 small block, but I don't know if I'd get the same effect as my turbo car did....or if it would be better....or worse....I don't know if I want to go turbo again since I'd have to custom build the headers for it, plumb oil lines, etc. I'm more after a bolt-on-and-go deal.

I've not driven a car with a s/c before...I'm sorta wondering how they compare to a turbo in terms of neck snapping acceleration...?
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Old 05-16-2013, 08:37 PM
 
Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico
307 posts, read 682,493 times
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I use to own a turbo, and have rode in one with a super charger. The charger has no lag and your neck will snap back.
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Old 05-16-2013, 08:38 PM
 
Location: Prosper
6,255 posts, read 17,036,839 times
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I prefer turbocharged vehicles. Ultimately, they are more efficient than any supercharged car. They can also product more power simply by upping the boost pressure. For a supercharger, that would require a different pulley.

The only time I would consider a sc car over a turbo one is if the turbo is massive and a lot of lag, like full boost at 5k or so.

However, in your situation, putting a sc on your 350 would be so much easier than fabricating a turbo setup. I'd probably go for the sc in your case, even though a turbo setup would ultimately give you more power and a more flexible powerband. Not to mention, if you can drive with a light foot, the turbo car will give much better gas mileage than the sc one.
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Old 05-16-2013, 08:46 PM
 
Location: Whittier
3,004 posts, read 6,256,232 times
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Superchargers are beltdriven and connected to the engine. Basically the response is immediate as they just magnify the torque curve.

Turbos, usually have some lag and change the torque curve, in most aftermarket cases.

----

In short a S/C car will feel like an N/A car with a bigger engine. A turbo car will feel like a car with a turbo on it, especially if it's a big turbo. A big turbo = more lag.

IMO turbos feel faster because of that kick. But I personally like the instant response of a nice S/C'd setup.
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Old 05-16-2013, 09:34 PM
 
2,341 posts, read 12,005,522 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elgix6 View Post
I use to own a turbo, and have rode in one with a super charger. The charger has no lag and your neck will snap back.
That's basically it. The supercharger won't have the lag. Of course, some people LOVE the lag.

The bottom line is that there's no clear-cut and definitive answer, regarding which charger is better. Too many variables, and pros and cons with each.
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:33 AM
 
774 posts, read 2,595,144 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deez Nuttz View Post
Thought I'd throw this out there...ever since selling my turbo Buick, I've got the itch to get into forced induction again. I'll admit, boost is like crack....you get your first taste, then you want some more.

Anyways I've considered throwing a supercharger on my 69 Nova's 350 small block, but I don't know if I'd get the same effect as my turbo car did....or if it would be better....or worse....I don't know if I want to go turbo again since I'd have to custom build the headers for it, plumb oil lines, etc. I'm more after a bolt-on-and-go deal.

I've not driven a car with a s/c before...I'm sorta wondering how they compare to a turbo in terms of neck snapping acceleration...?

Per lbs of boost a turbo car will be more efficient and make more power. I've owned a couple of factory supercharged and turbo cars as well as built my own setups. While some people will tell you that turbos are "free" power that isn't exactly true as there is "some" loss due to back pressure but this is minimal.

Here's is what I found out swapping a blower for a turbo kit without making any additional changes to the car. After playing with an 04 Cobra for a couple of yrs I had a car that made 522HP and 564 lbs to the tires. It had been dynoed a number of times and these were the best numbers. Boost was right at 15lbs. It had headers, exhaust, cams, a tune etc etc. It was fun but I knew there was more. Being a turbo guy my entire life I knew something big was missing.

I met John Urist in the pits at the drag strip one day and started talking about his kit for the 04 Cobra. I made the call the following week and had a kit at my house in a month. I did the install at home and drove the car for a couple of days very easy to make sure I didn't have any leaks etc. I scheduled a time to have a local shop do a tune and dyno time. Putting a very safe tune in the car the first pull was at 5 lbs of boost. The car responded with around 350 at the tire. Boost was bumped to 11lbs and the car laid down 535hp and 602 lbs tq. For those that are doing the math. That's more power and torque than it made with the blower with 4 lbs LESS boost. We bumped the boost one last time back to the same 15lbs run on the blower and the car responded with 684hp and 773lbs tq. The shop recommended turning it down as that was approaching the limit of the stock parts and I did plan to drive it pretty hard. We turned it down to 12 lbs and left it alone


For the record that's 162hp and 209 lbs tq MORE with the turbo than with the blower at the same boost level. Both setups were tuned by the same shop on the same dyno and no other changes were made to the car.

Turbo cars can be a real pain the butt to build and work on but there isn't a comparison when it comes to power.

One last thing.. People like to talk about turbo lag or waiting for the boost to hit.. That was an issue years ago and could be a problem today IF you choose a turbo that is too large for your application. No point in putting a pair of 88's on the car if all you want to make is 600hp...

I've put together a number of old SBC combo's and the Nova is a very easy platform to build on. IF your 350 is basically stock I'd recommend going pretty small on the turbo. A single 62-67mm T04 unit with a .81 exhaust A/R will give you almost instant boost. Keep the boost at 5-6lbs and it should make well north of 450HP with a mild cam and intake. The key will be to clean up the heads and get a good exhaust system after the turbo.

If you seriously want to do a turbo SBC let me know. I can give you part numbers and dyno results for some of the cars i've built over the years.

Last edited by DELL37; 05-17-2013 at 09:47 AM..
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:56 AM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
5,994 posts, read 19,983,384 times
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I'm putting some decent work into my first turbocharged car after reading up on other peoples worries on turbo lag and I feel that it is overblown. I went from the tiny stock turbo with basically instant spool, to an upgraded stocker (stock housing with larger turbine and compressor wheels) which retained very similar spool characteristics, to a "laggy" 20G turbo and realized that I should have just gone that route in the first place. Forum members worries on lag got me worried when I did the initial turbo upgrade so I went with a smaller unit but I found that the 20G still builds boost at just under 3k under load, and hits full boost by 3800. Not only that, but it's easier to stay off boost for normal cruising/commuting which returns great mileage when I'm not looking to go balls out.

I've been in supercharged cars and power delivery is definitely more linear but the ease of a factory turbocharged setup is more attractive for me as a base for upgrades.
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:59 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,656 posts, read 57,755,120 times
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My 1963 Studebaker truck with 4-53 Detroit Diesel (2cycle) had both Supercharger and turbo! (good thing... it needed every bit of it to pull the mtn passes.)
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:02 PM
 
Location: Central Texas
13,715 posts, read 31,086,515 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MckinneyOwnr View Post
I prefer turbocharged vehicles. Ultimately, they are more efficient than any supercharged car. They can also product more power simply by upping the boost pressure. For a supercharger, that would require a different pulley.
Boost is controlled first by the physical capability of the compressor. That's really a mechanical issue - rpm, size and shape of the vanes, etc. The actual boost is controlled by a wastegate or valve. There is nothing different about raising the boost pressure of a turbo vs. a SC.

A turbo can't just be made to spin faster. You could change the turbo to a different one.

A SC could be made to spin faster with a different pulley.

But boost levels can be changed for either through the wastegate.
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:16 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
5,994 posts, read 19,983,384 times
Reputation: 4078
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffdano View Post
Boost is controlled first by the physical capability of the compressor. That's really a mechanical issue - rpm, size and shape of the vanes, etc. The actual boost is controlled by a wastegate or valve. There is nothing different about raising the boost pressure of a turbo vs. a SC.

A turbo can't just be made to spin faster. You could change the turbo to a different one.

A SC could be made to spin faster with a different pulley.

But boost levels can be changed for either through the wastegate.
My understanding is that with a supercharger you can't simply adjust a knob on an MBC or equivalently adjust boost duty cycles with an EBC for things like gear dependent boost control or simply to adjust boost in a matter of seconds. I do this with my turbo car to reduce power for certain weather conditions or to limit torque in lower gears where I'm more traction limited, etc. Also for a track day or on days when I want more power I can up the boost and then drop it back down for daily driven duty to reduce stress on the engine.

I have limited working experience with superchargers and thought the only method of boost control was a pulley swap. Is this not the case?

Last edited by iTsLiKeAnEgG; 05-17-2013 at 12:31 PM..
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