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I'm sure the OP, having gone through 2 mechanics and owning a euro car for more than a decade, has exhausted google searches. He/she doesn't deserve to be condescended to, they are simply asking for advice.
I'm sure the OP, having gone through 2 mechanics and owning a euro car for more than a decade, has exhausted google searches. He/she doesn't deserve to be condescended to, they are simply asking for advice.
Since s/he is posting this question on City-Data, I doubt they have exhausted all of the options. The OP needs to be posting on a dedicated Saab enthusiast forum.
Kinda sounds like a couple mechanics who aren't mechanics at all - or they ARE mechanics and just don't want to mess with that particular car.
I was being sarcastic, of course. As a rookie and amateur shade tree mechanic as I am, even I can tell the possible causes of some of the car troubles, if these are so-called Saab specialist mechanics are that way off base, it makes you wonder, doesn't it?
Yes i've tried googling this problem (and saab forums) and since it can be one of 20 things that's not really helpful. As i said before the throttle body and fuel pump have been ruled out. The crankshaft sensor is 1 year old so that is not it. Everything has been tried EXCEPT replacing every sensor, every hose, the fuel pump and the throttle body (the latter 2 of which mechanics say are working fine). If it's a vacuum or sensor problem, nobody can find it. Car is now at Saab specialist/mechanic number 3 and he is stumped. I am now enduring weeks of this car being at the shop and mechanics trying to solve the puzzle and nobody can. New guy says it's not the tranmission (as he thought over the phone).
Original question still stands and I am hoping for an answer (and really this has nothing to do with my specific car or saab): assuming the stalling continues because no one can fix it, should I keep the car until it completely dies, or get rid of it now?
What is the tipping point for getting rid of a car? Right now the car starts, then stalls/dies, then starts up again eventually and runs OK. Should I live with an occasionally stalling car? Or should I cut bait now?
Last edited by saabstory; 11-20-2013 at 05:12 PM..
Yes i've tried googling this problem (and saab forums) and since it can be one of 20 things that's not really helpful. As i said before the throttle body and fuel pump have been ruled out. The crankshaft sensor is 1 year old so that is not it. Everything has been tried EXCEPT replacing every sensor, every hose, the fuel pump and the throttle body (the latter 2 of which mechanics say are working fine). If it's a vacuum or sensor problem, nobody can find it. Car is now at Saab specialist/mechanic number 3 and he is stumped. I am now enduring weeks of this car being at the shop and mechanics trying to solve the puzzle and nobody can. New guy says it's not the tranmission (as he thought over the phone).
Original question still stands and I am hoping for an answer (and really this has nothing to do with my specific car or saab): assuming the stalling continues because no one can fix it, should I keep the car until it completely dies, or get rid of it now?
What is the tipping point for getting rid of a car? Right now the car starts, then stalls/dies, then starts up again eventually and runs OK. Should I live with an occasionally stalling car? Or should I cut bait now?
despite the claim that the guys you've been taking this car to are Saab specialists ...
I'm not under an impression that any of them are driveability technicians.
In the absence of DTC codes, which apparently have not been triggered in your car's computer, this calls for a higher level of diagnostics then the average parts-swapping shop.
You need to find a tech/shop that knows how to use an o'scope to look at the waveforms of the sensors and either has experience with what "looks normal" or has access to a database that has them. There are a number of in-the-trade 'net sites which have accumulated many thousands of waveform pictures of good and bad symptomatic component problems. But this is what it takes to locate an item that isn't performing so badly that the computer software says it's a problem area.
As well, finding vacuum leaks is a matter of knowing the car systems and following the vacuum hoses and testing the components that the vacuum actuates to verify that they are actually functioning. This also applies to electrical solenoids which may have a normal electrical signature but the functionality isn't taking place. These types of faults can easily show up in EGR, Crankcase Ventilation, Fuel system components, etc. and can all affect the driveability as you've described.
How the shops have determined that the engine controls are functioning normally is a big question at this point. It's readily apparent that they aren't functioning normally, so now it's incumbent upon the tech to find out which ones are/aren't working properly. Many techs get by by taking stuff apart and cleaning it all, which at the mileage on your car wouldn't be an unusual need.
There are additional problems that can present in the electrical/electronics wiring/connectors in these cars. Poor ground circuits can create all kinds of weird problems for the computer controls, and need to be physically taken apart, cleaned, and inspected. Many techs simply don't recognize that these issues can be a problem in a car and don't test or check them out. Similarly, assuming that the crankshaft sensor has to be in good condition because it's relatively not a diagnosis; ie, I've seen infant mortality on all kinds of electrical/electronic components in many cars.
It's unlikely that your car has a major mechanical fault in it, but it doesn't run right. My bet is that there will be a combination of several minor faults which a competent tech will be able to locate and correct to get this running properly.
As posted several times in this thread ... you need to find a competent tech instead of the guessers/pretenders that you've been going to so far.
Sunsprit: What in God's name is a "driveability technician"?
With all due respect, I don't think it is reasonable for you to expect most techs in most cities to do this kind of "high level of diagnostics" you so eloquently describe. What you are describing is a needle in the haystack, a tech that is going to go above and beyond.
Sunsprit: What in God's name is a "driveability technician"?
With all due respect, I don't think it is reasonable for you to expect most techs in most cities to do this kind of "high level of diagnostics" you so eloquently describe. What you are describing is a needle in the haystack, a tech that is going to go above and beyond.
Not gonna happen unless the OP gets very lucky.
a driveability tech is an automotive tech who has learned the basic (and they are BASIC!) diagnostic skillset required to deal with the real world problems that present in computerized cars. In years past, these were the guys in the shops who had a reputation for "fixing" cars that the other shops in town couldn't figure out.
What sets these guys apart is that they learn the systems, acquire the equipment to measure and analyze the vehicles, and have the persistence to verify component peformance in a car rather than getting down to the level the OP describes ... Oh, they've checked a couple of items, have ruled out the crank sensor, and now are down to saying that the only way to diagnose this car is to start replacing all the relevant component to the engine performance ... sensors, hoses, etc. This is the height of idiocy and incompetence at work.
Sorry to disappoint you, but there are many competent automotive technicians in the business who posses the correct attitude, knowledge, skills, and equipment to follow through on these challenges.
FWIW, my territory as an automotive shop consultant covers WY, SD, NE, and northern CO. I call upon independent shops throughout this sparsely populated area and I know for a fact ... first-hand by being in these guys shops and working with them, watching their skills in action ... that it's not a prerequisite to competency in this business that only the big-city guys have. I've seen small shops where the technical proficiency was second to nobody, and the guys weren't afraid to invest in the top professional equipment, training, and access to service information in the industry. It's all about professional attitude and a motivation to think logically, and that's what attracted many techs into this business ... to take on those challenges and have fun, make money, and aggessively seek to satisfy their clientele.
The OP doesn't need to get "lucky" to find the tech(s) in her area that can perform this level of work. With three(!) shops in her area that claim to be Saab experts, that's a major metropolitan area. I'll bet that there are at least several shops that advertise a specialty of automotive electronics/diagnostics ... and those are the guys that will have the ability to identify, isolate, and advise about the driveability issues with this car that have presented without guesswork.
It's not a black art, it's a matter of exercising the basic skills which so few automotive shops want to perform these days. I used to have top vo-tech grads come through my shop who were insulted that I'd ask them to do voltage-drop tests to identify high resistant connections causing electrical problems, especially in the early '70's computer systems in cars. Those were the guys who I invited to pack up their toolboxes and collect their final paycheck before lunch that day. Some even made it through the first day before their ego's were bigger than their demonstrated talents and skills. Most of the ones with the wrong attitude to perform in this business wound up back as tire busters, oil changers, or parts replacers at a franchise brake shop .... a few made it as R&R guys for franchise transmission or engine shops. But none of them ever made it as a mechanic, let alone a technician. Some have stayed with me for over 20 years ... and still show me new stuff every week; we're all learning in this biz.
PS: I know of 2 Saab specialist shops in Fort Collins CO who I have every confidence in would have this car diagnosed and repaired in minimum time and with as small an expense as possible. Likewise, a few in Denver that could do this level of work that are Saab specialists. And many more throughout my region who aren't Saab specialists (there aren't enough of these cars around here to specialize in them) ... but understand how to use their skills, tools, information, and equipment. The parts for these cars are readily available from several major national euro car wholesale specialists with warehouses throughout the USA, and the pro level service information is readily available to the trade.
PPS: Some of the diagnostic tactics of years ago are still very much valid today. For example, I used to use a propane torch and hose to spot deliver propane around an intake manifold suspected of intake leaks. This became a good tactic to use around vacuum leaks at injector seals, too. With the propane and an exhaust gas analyzer, I could locate a lot of intermittent vacuum leaks that other shops couldn't identify as driveability problems. With appropriate caution ... you need to judiciously use the propane at various spots, not flood the shop with it to cause an explosive situation. Sometimes you can do the same test with a spray can of your favorite solvent. Other vacuum leaks could be located with a TIF electronic test unit, other guys could use a piece of hose like a stethoscope, yet others today use a smoke generator to inject smoke into a manifold and look for the tell tale leak in places ... especially useful for under-dash vacuum component leaks. I've got an "electronic ear" stethoscope unit that amplies point source noises, sometimes I can hear a squeal from a vacuum leak. Other techs have their favorite tricks to do this type of work ... my list is by no means comprehensive, it's just some of the ways that I've found to locate vacuum leaks. Still others will simply pull hoses off and inspect them ... some will clamp the hoses and use a hand vacuum pump to see if the hose will hold a vacuum. When R-12 was readily available, I used to pressurize vacuum systems with a minute amount and then "sniff" around the systems with a TIF gas sensor; it was the fast and easy way to diagnose vacuum leaks in 'benz central locking systems and I didn't have to pull apart any door or floor panels to isolate the problem areas.
The tactics are endless, all it takes is some dedication and ingenuity to do this. Similar thinking can pay off in simple but effective diagnostics for electrical/electronics and other systems in the cars of today. Working smart beats working blind any day of the week ....
I am driving a Saab 95 Aero, 2001. The mileage is 100,000 km. I only can start at Neutral and can move forward without any problem. It drive well in D. After started at N, I only can enage D to drive or shilf down to 1 and 2. When I enter into R, the car completely no response and cannot reverse. Having the engine started at N, I shift to P, but the lights show R. I tried to push the car reverse at N but it seems that the wheel are locked and cannot be push. Any advice?
Last edited by Thomas Wong; 02-24-2015 at 08:56 PM..
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