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Old 10-20-2014, 02:16 PM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
16,568 posts, read 15,139,225 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HedgeYourInvestments View Post
I pay very little for gas (that 300 miles is usually on 9 gallons, and at least 25% is in the Southern California Stop-and-Go nightmare) and I have no problem with a consumption tax on roads.
There was a time when cars were getting 10-15mpg. Do you remember they ever say they are collecting enough gas taxes? They always want more.
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Old 10-20-2014, 02:21 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherifftruman View Post
I don't have specifics for other states, but all states charge a gas tax and in NC, the gas tax is what pays for the roads. Now, you could also say its all a big pot so it doesn't really matter what comes from each source, but that's the way it is supposed to be.

As far as simply raising the gas tax, that would work for a while. However, cars are going to, on average, get better mileage each year. The rates for gas tax for the most part were set some time ago when all cars got worse mileage than now. So, if the fleet average was 20 MPG back in the day and 25 MPG now, that's a 20% reduction in revenue per mile driven. And of course now, with electric and hybrids, it is even more of an issue and will continue to get worse each year.
Yes, and gas taxes whether or not they go into a pot and then actually go to pay for roads cover the minority of state and local expenditure on roads. Even in high gas tax states like California, they don't even cover half of the state/local component of road costs.

And yes, rising fuel economy is going to force increases in gas taxes just to stay revenue neutral unless enough drivers can be added which just means more need for roads and road maintenance anyway.

Quote:
Thats not quite correct. With wealth comes the flexibility to purchase much of what is needed or wanted and written down as business expenses. There is an entire industry of professionals that specialize in help people do just that.

I'm not getting into the philosophical aspect of the right or wrong but just because the wealth might buy more things and by the more expensive things has very little to do with how much they pay in sales tax.

The of the first things you do in wealth management is not own things personally. The business owns it or some other entity owns it and you use it for yourself. A vacation becomes a business trip. Of course, you need to be able to afford the trip in the first place but that comes back to you in various way, including taxes you don't pay because that trip offset some other expense.

While the wealthy do pay higher tax rates, the majority of the tax credits and deductions that provide the highest return benefit only apply to high income earners.
To an extent, sure. As far as owning vacation homes or taking personal trips to Hawaii, not so much. In the past I've gone to NY on business. I certainly deducted the cost of the flight to and from even though I stayed an extra few days as a vacation. You could always lie about it and write off the hotel for the personal days and just hope you don't get audited. I never have been but I imagine if you're taking lots of trips to Europe for three weeks they might want to see something that substantiates that you actually did go there on business. Companies are mostly notoriously stingy these days with expense accounts. They're not really into paying for personal vacations at the company's expense. My mileage deductions are pretty hefty, but that is something I keep detailed logs of as the IRS require contemporaneous records and requires them pretty frequently.
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Old 10-20-2014, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Morrisville, NC
9,128 posts, read 14,683,015 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
Yes, and gas taxes whether or not they go into a pot and then actually go to pay for roads cover the minority of state and local expenditure on roads. Even in high gas tax states like California, they don't even cover half of the state/local component of road costs.

And yes, rising fuel economy is going to force increases in gas taxes just to stay revenue neutral unless enough drivers can be added which just means more need for roads and road maintenance anyway.


As long as you are OK with a growing number of people getting off by not having to pay taxes for the roads they drive, this will work, but ultra efficient and non-gasoline/diesel powered vehicles are increasing in number every day. Just taxing gas/diesel means that all other drivers are subsidizing them. In fact, you could argue it is the same as buying non-highway diesel and running it in your car on the road. People get fined for this all the time.
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Old 10-20-2014, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
21,677 posts, read 24,828,364 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherifftruman View Post
As long as you are OK with a growing number of people getting off by not having to pay taxes for the roads they drive, this will work, but ultra efficient and non-gasoline/diesel powered vehicles are increasing in number every day. Just taxing gas/diesel means that all other drivers are subsidizing them. In fact, you could argue it is the same as buying non-highway diesel and running it in your car on the road. People get fined for this all the time.
Yup, and out where I live people do do it. The fines are heavy enough that most won't attempt it. But like I said, per mile is an inevitability. But if you're subsidizing electric car purchases as we are, it doesn't make much sense. Here's $2,000 subsidy. Oh, wait we taxed you $300/yr but we still need to subsidize electric cars because we have C02 requirements to meet.. Well, you'll probably keep that car for five years so we'll increase the subsidy to $3,500. What's that accomplish?

If you're not in California and don't have CO2 targets that's less of an issue.
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Old 10-20-2014, 02:49 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Western Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
Yup, and out where I live people do do it. The fines are heavy enough that most won't attempt it. But like I said, per mile is an inevitability. But if you're subsidizing electric car purchases as we are, it doesn't make much sense. Here's $2,000 subsidy. Oh, wait we taxed you $300/yr but we still need to subsidize electric cars because we have C02 requirements to meet.. Well, you'll probably keep that car for five years so we'll increase the subsidy to $3,500. What's that accomplish?

If you're not in California and don't have CO2 targets that's less of an issue.
Other countries with CO2 target just have higher gas taxes. If the goals is reducing energy use or CO2 targets, taxing a Prius per distance at the same rate as a Chevy Suburban is dumb. It's also more efficient than having lots of red tape with fleet average rules.
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Old 10-20-2014, 02:52 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Western Massachusetts
46,009 posts, read 53,220,759 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherifftruman View Post
As long as you are OK with a growing number of people getting off by not having to pay taxes for the roads they drive, this will work, but ultra efficient and non-gasoline/diesel powered vehicles are increasing in number every day.
Yes, I'm fine with that.
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Old 10-20-2014, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Other countries with CO2 target just have higher gas taxes. If the goals is reducing energy use or CO2 targets, taxing a Prius per distance at the same rate as a Chevy Suburban is dumb. It's also more efficient than having lots of red tape with fleet average rules.
Yup.

Aside from California though, I don't think any other states have CO2 targets. The generalized "4th power rule" is used in estimating road damage anyway.

A suburban weighs 5,600 pounds, a Prius 3,000. Take (5,600/3,000)^4 and you have your relative road damage of a Suburban compared to a Prius. So a suburban does 12 times the road damage as a Prius as a rough estimate. So the Prius in reality is actually subsidizing the Suburban anyway. Also why I kind of laugh when people moan about bikes not paying any road taxes. (200/3200)^4? 1.56e-5. Basically nothing.

Problem from a revenue perspective is that cars are getting heavier AND getting better mileage. Electric cars aren't really an issue as of yet as there just aren't enough of them to make any difference. Oregon's proposal, for example, is a weight-mile fee. Not sure about California's. I haven't looked at it.
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Old 10-20-2014, 03:01 PM
 
Location: Metro Washington DC
15,395 posts, read 25,663,648 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Snacks View Post
Read my post (# 18) and you'll understand why that plan doesn't work.
Post 18 does not answer my question. Make everyone us an EZ Pass and no toll booths and it won't cause worse backups.
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Old 10-20-2014, 03:07 PM
 
Location: Metro Washington DC
15,395 posts, read 25,663,648 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyRider View Post
Don't ask for more money when you are not spending the gas tax you are already collecting on other stuff. Makes sense?
They're going to raise another tax anyways. Just go and raise the gas tax and don't make a new tax. That would work, and possibly cost individuals less than a mileage tax would, no?
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Old 10-20-2014, 03:20 PM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
1,702 posts, read 1,910,216 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherifftruman View Post
As long as you are OK with a growing number of people getting off by not having to pay taxes for the roads they drive, this will work, but ultra efficient and non-gasoline/diesel powered vehicles are increasing in number every day. Just taxing gas/diesel means that all other drivers are subsidizing them. In fact, you could argue it is the same as buying non-highway diesel and running it in your car on the road. People get fined for this all the time.

True, however ZEVs are a pretty insignificant share of the overall market. For now I would just consider that they are a very minor benefit to the big picture due to the renewable, non-polluting aspects and give them a pass for now. If California sticks to its guns by 2018 that may be a different story altogether. At 30% of the car market it will start to make a bit of a hit. Gotta say though..... CA doesn't have a perfect track record of sticking to things like this if pressure gets to be too much or if the technology is not ready.

Even though Ford and Nissan aggressively trying to build a ZEV presence here the early adopters are still paying more and getting less than a gas car. The sweet spot is the plug-ins in my opinion. For the driver in the circumstances it can easily be 100mpg rig.
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