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Old 11-14-2014, 12:45 PM
 
90 posts, read 85,120 times
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See, that's the thing.....I live in Worcester, MA and they call it the "City of Seven Hills". Pretty much this entire city is hills in one form or another, and I happen to live on one of the seven hills. My street is a pretty steep hill also...

We used to own a 2009 Toyota Corolla...That car did horrible in the snow, hills, whatever. We even put brand new tires on it, and it was OK for awhile...but after a few months it went right back to normal. Wouldn't go up hills, tires spun. Going down, it slipped.

And we had negative equity in that car, too. Does anyone really ever get what they owe on a trade in?
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Old 11-14-2014, 01:19 PM
 
189 posts, read 246,698 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadwell10201 View Post
See, that's the thing.....I live in Worcester, MA and they call it the "City of Seven Hills". Pretty much this entire city is hills in one form or another, and I happen to live on one of the seven hills. My street is a pretty steep hill also...

We used to own a 2009 Toyota Corolla...That car did horrible in the snow, hills, whatever. We even put brand new tires on it, and it was OK for awhile...but after a few months it went right back to normal. Wouldn't go up hills, tires spun. Going down, it slipped.

And we had negative equity in that car, too. Does anyone really ever get what they owe on a trade in?
What kind of tires, not winter I assume.

As for the trade in, too many factors such as length of purchase and down payment. Typically most people are upside up on new cars or new leases (gap insurance is important) as soon as they drive it off the lot
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Old 11-14-2014, 01:27 PM
 
8,390 posts, read 7,385,412 times
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Snow tires give better performance in snow and don ice t hat all terrain regular tires for two reasons.

They are made of a softer rubber than the regular tires. This difference in types of rubber makes them superior.

They have deep treads that give you more grip on snow. On ice either one is not really good to stop.

That is why you want studs on the tires for safety as they bite into the ice and allow you to stop, not skid.

As you do a lot of hilly driving, it is studded snow tires, or 4X4 for safety.

We drive for our winter car, a 2012 Explorer with studded snow tires. It is nice to pull up to a chains required gate on the Interstate where they let you through only if you have chains with one exception. That is 4 wheel drive, with studded snow tires do not require chains. They do a visual check on us. They check to see it is a 4 wheel drive model, and they check the tires for tread and studs, and wave us through.
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Old 11-14-2014, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
10,835 posts, read 12,878,845 times
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Not to even mention one of the biggest causes of accidents in Winter is following to closely. Guy in front of you has a problem and you cannot stop in time. Snow tires help there, AWD does not.
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Old 11-14-2014, 05:20 PM
 
Location: Chicago
38,691 posts, read 86,869,750 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MckinneyOwnr View Post
That's highly debatable, and most likely wrong IMO. Snow is one thing, but ice is another, and snow tires won't do a damn thing on ice. In that case, you need more drive wheels, and AWD is superior to 2WD for traction in every instance.

That being said, a minivan's weight is primarily over the drive wheels, so it won't be bad to drive in the snow, it should be very predictable. My father's FWD minivan functions fine in snow in most situations, but on ice he's had to park it on the street several times over the years because he can't get back into his garage (driveway has a pretty good incline to it.)

All of my vehicles on the other hand are AWD, and we've never had problems getting around in snow or ice.
I doubt anyone who claims winter tires won't do a damn thing on ice have ever driven on ice on all-seasons and done it again on winter tires. While winter tires are no magic bullet, they have noticeably better grip even on sheer ice; stopping distances in particular are dramatically shortened. And no, AWD is not superior to 2WD in every instance. For straight-line acceleration in low-traction conditions, AWD with decent and relatively fresh all-seasons will typically outperform 2WD with winter tires. But when it comes time to stop or turn, winter tires rule. Obviously, AWD plus winter tires is the most ideal combination for winter driving conditions, but that ship has sailed for the OP.

OP, it sounds like you've already decided to invest in winter tires, which is a good idea. They really do make a substantial difference and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. The best approach is to buy a second set of rims -- even black steel ones will do if you're not picky about fancy rims in wintertime -- that will fit on your van and have your winter tires mounted on them. You may also want to consider getting a second set of TPMS sensors if you don't want to drive around with a low tire pressure warning all winter. The initial outlay will be expensive, but keep in mind that the cost of the winter tires will be largely recouped by reducing the rate of wear on your other set of tires.
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Old 11-14-2014, 07:16 PM
 
Location: Prosper
6,268 posts, read 12,125,258 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
I doubt anyone who claims winter tires won't do a damn thing on ice have ever driven on ice on all-seasons and done it again on winter tires. While winter tires are no magic bullet, they have noticeably better grip even on sheer ice; stopping distances in particular are dramatically shortened. And no, AWD is not superior to 2WD in every instance.
Really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
Obviously, AWD plus winter tires is the most ideal combination for winter driving conditions
Seem to have contradicted yourself there. Keeping tires the same, AWD is superior in EVERY instance.

I suppose someone with marginal driving experience/ability on snow/ice would be wowed by the increase in predictability/feedback from snow tires vs all seasons... while being completely unaware that driving prudently for conditions on all seasons is going to be nearly as good as far as braking distance and handling of snow tires.
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Old 11-14-2014, 07:48 PM
 
Location: Chicago
38,691 posts, read 86,869,750 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MckinneyOwnr View Post
Really?
Yes really.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MckinneyOwnr View Post
Seem to have contradicted yourself there. Keeping tires the same, AWD is superior in EVERY instance.
No I'm not contradicting myself. I'm contradicting you. I never claimed AWD with all-seasons would be superior than 2WD with winter tires -- you did. You didn't add the "keeping tires the same" exception to the otherwise categorical "in EVERY instance" until just now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MckinneyOwnr View Post
I suppose someone with marginal driving experience/ability on snow/ice would be wowed by the increase in predictability/feedback from snow tires vs all seasons... while being completely unaware that driving prudently for conditions on all seasons is going to be nearly as good as far as braking distance and handling of snow tires.
Not only have I lived in the snow belt for my entire life save a few years downstate at college, but I have over a decade of winter rallycross experience in snow and ice trials competition experience on frozen lakes -- on both winter tires and all-season tires. So trust me when I tell you that I have vastly more experience in this arena than you do. And modern winter tires are so clearly superior to all-seasons on snow and ice that it's not even worth debating. The only thing worth debating then is the cost-benefit analysis of obtaining a second set of tires and wheels for seasonal use. If I lived in, say, St. Louis or Nashville, I'd use all-seasons in winter. But here in the snow belt, I'll never use all-season tires again for as long as I live up here.
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Old 11-14-2014, 08:01 PM
 
Location: Funkotron, MA
1,204 posts, read 2,909,999 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadwell10201 View Post
We haven't had the van long enough to test it in the winter...Snow tires seem to be extremely expensive (upwards of $1,000 for all 4). and I'm starting to wonder how good this thing is going to be in the snow.

...

Does anyone have any experience in the snow in a van, or better yet has anyone gone FROM a FWD van to a 4WD SUV and can compare?
You're really considering trading in a new car, but snow tires are too expensive?

Do a search on snow tires. The topic has come up several times just in the past week.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadwell10201 View Post
Also, in my opinion 4x4 or 4WD is FAR superior to FWD or AWD (minus Subaru). Regular AWD doesn't seem wonderful in the snow...Don't have any experience with Subaru's AWD system, but I do know it's superior to "regular" AWD.
4WD is not superior if you have crappy tires on it. A four legged man wearing dress shoes (with smooth, flat bottoms) is going to slip in the snow a lot more than a two legged man wearing good winter boots.

And there is no such thing as "regular" AWD. There's 4wd or 4x4 with an actual transfer case, full time AWD, and part time AWD. All of them have different variations between them. Some are electronic, some are purely mechanical, some are combinations of both. And again, even in those sub-groups there are variations in how it's implemented.

My point is, you really have to talk about and compare individual AWD systems or cars to have a fair discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MckinneyOwnr View Post
I suppose someone with marginal driving experience/ability on snow/ice would be wowed by the increase in predictability/feedback from snow tires vs all seasons... while being completely unaware that driving prudently for conditions on all seasons is going to be nearly as good as far as braking distance and handling of snow tires.
Sorry, but this simply is not true. Snow tires are designed to have better grip in snow/ice/cold temperatures than all-seaons. That's a fact. A bad driver is a bad driver, but one using snow tires will be more in control than one using all season in the snow. This is especially evident in braking and cornering.
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Old 11-14-2014, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Prosper
6,268 posts, read 12,125,258 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
You didn't add the "keeping tires the same" exception to the otherwise categorical "in EVERY instance" until just now.
Didn't think I'd actually have to state something that obvious... I guess for you it needed to be spelled out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raveabouttoast View Post
Sorry, but this simply is not true. Snow tires are designed to have better grip in snow/ice/cold temperatures than all-seaons. That's a fact. A bad driver is a bad driver, but one using snow tires will be more in control than one using all season in the snow. This is especially evident in braking and cornering.
Yes, they are designed to have better grip than all-seasons. I'm not debating snow traction either, my main point was about ice.

I've driven my Cayenne S on snow and ice, it's AWD. On winter tires, handling and braking are marginally better than with all seasons. Not enough to rave about, that's for sure. It probably stops about 15 ft shorter distance than with all seasons (1 car length) and handling again is only a marginal improvement.

Going from 2wd to 4wd/AWD is much more of an improvement than switching tires in most cases, especially when going up and down hills as the OP is.
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Old 11-14-2014, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Chicago
38,691 posts, read 86,869,750 times
Reputation: 29355
Quote:
Originally Posted by MckinneyOwnr View Post
Didn't think I'd actually have to state something that obvious... I guess for you it needed to be spelled out.
It's been obvious to me all along. I'm not the one who argued that AWD with all-seasons is superior to FWD with winter tires followed with an unequivocal claim that "AWD is superior to 2WD for traction in every instance." If you didn't mean "in every instance" then perhaps you should have chosen different wording than "in every instance."
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