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It's also a lot more technical than it used to be, with computers for just about everything. Back in the day, you could change a set of points, clean a carburetor with gumout, bleed brakes without having to worry about ABS, didn't need a laptop (or at the least a code reader), etc. to work on cars.
In years gone by, there was a challenge to performing even the mundane, everyday tasks. There was an art to properly adjusting a carburetor or a set of valves. An experienced tech could set the timing and dwell by "feel" without ever looking at the book.
Today it's more of an R&R world. Oxygen sensor in bay 2. MAF sensor in bay 3. Bay 4 needs a valve job, but we're just going to R&R the head because the cost to buy a reman head from a production shop is less than the cost of the parts and labor involved in rebuilding it on site, plus that way we can clear out the bay more quickly to make room for another O2 sensor job.
A friend of mine was visiting his in-laws for the weekend. When he got ready to come home on Sunday the belt tensioner seized up. Luckily his FIL had a buddy who had been a mechanic and still worked on cars on the side who was willing to come over and fix it. He told my friend "This is why I got out of the business, I hate working on stupid stuff like this." I think a lot of guys feel the same way.
Having been to where ford calculates their labor ops for SLTS-warranty, his argument holds some merit... These times are in laboratory conditions. With fresh vehicles. Every tool needed laid on a bench, with vehicles that haven't seen road salt for 2-5 years (average warranty claim in a ford diesel is between 20/90k 2-5 years old)
These times are Not at a dealership where.
1. You spend 10 minutes hunting for the customers vehicle due to either customer parking it way out of the way for whatever reason, key fob dead not setting the horn off, lazy porter taking their sweet time bringing the key to the board, or horn inop.
2. No north east rust and crust after 2-3 years
(I left NY moved to Florida. Never accepted flat rape in NY. I average 50-70 hours a week down here. It's nice. Didn't go to work today I'm ahead on hours. Could never do that in NY between the rust broken bolts/studs welding/a drilling tapping to remove broken fasteners that I wouldn't be compensated for if I were flat rate)
3. No line at the parts counter for estimates or parts retrieval.
4. No horrible lifts (Mohawks are junk and ought to be banned from shops between swing arm sag and un level locks) that take forever to go up.
5. Fresh special service tools laid on the table. (No catalog with box numbers and the tech or parts or shop foreman retrieving that box and some douche stripped threads or otherwise damaged it or it walked when the last guy quit/got fired) I have spent 45 minutes looking for a tool at one dealership, I pulled the truck outside before I even started taking it apart due to not having the tool and the manager too cheap to buy it. I refused to touch it and have it come back. A. It's a requirement by the manufacturer to have (get audited and not have SSTs for whatever reason, bye bye franchise) B. Business write off.
6. Motor, Mitchell, Somedata labor times are sometimes LESS than ford warranty times. Nah. No thanks. When that's the case and it's CP warranty x 1.5 they don't take rust and crust broken fasteners into consideration.
Kinda hard to call a customer up and say well that 1200 dollar exhaust manifold job on that 5.4 of yours... We had studs break and now we need another couple hundred in labor to dig them out of the heads... If the service writers quote the job, they cut the techs throat based on wanting to sell the job for their commission instead of over quote it expecting the worst, then adjusting the time. Be fair don't rape the customer or tech. Then there's shops where techs quote the jobs and they go to the moon 3-4x what it should take and milk it.
"But the book says" I don't care what the book says. Shove that book in your ass. Does the book see rust? Does the book see neglect/abuse? Live by the book, you'll die by it.
That whine in the rear diff, it's not just bearings, from a simple leaky pinion seal. This kid has a tuner in it with a lift and big mud tires, and the rear tires are bald, fronts have 10/32nds... Needs a ring and pinion has almost a 1/4 inch of backlash... Go to pop the pinion race out and find it's spun in the housing from friction welding with the bearing and the torque of the engine over came it. No wonder there's a ton of metal in the housing when it was draining... Uh oh... Writer and book didn't see that one coming and ford wanted pictures for warranfree... Hehe I'll step aside and let the writer and manager who know so much handle that one...
Those warranty times get smaller and smaller every year. And they don't take real world into consideration. Remember it's all in laboratory conditions where everything goes smooth, no dealer politics, no missing/damaged SSTs, no rust and crust, no having to hunt a vehicle down in the lot, no poorly maintained/chintzy lifts, no having to wait for so and so to get done with a transmission jack.
Or better yet... Dealer has a call center. Only 1 balancer and 1 tire machine. And call center books 5 cars at say 9am for snow tires... 5 techs up to their elbows in power train warranfree, and now they have "waiters" that must be attended to right away. And that's when the fights break out... I had a banner across my bay Waiters gonna Wait. I'd let the 4 other guys fuss over the tire machine while I'd finish something up. By 11 the tire machine was free. Then I'd pull it in and go get the tires from parts. But wait... The tires aren't in stock *gasp* they need to order them, they only had 5 sets in stock but the night before parts (because they're commission too) sold them to someone else and they came and picked the tires up the night before. Woohoo. Let's hurry up and wait! I don't miss those days...
I always believed in under promising and over delivering. 15 hours and done by Friday. Call the customer Wednesday all set 7-8 hours. Oh my! I'll come back again! And writers who had to deal with surveys, the ones who listened to me and followed my example, not some business grad service manager, ended up with the best reviews and survey scores, without having to up sell BS to make a living either. Manager believed in 20k 30k 50k 80k service packages-BG flushes... Nah homie trans service on a 50k mile superduty that plows snow and tows or is a dump truck and hauls, that gets filters changed, fluid changed and pan and magnet cleaned with a new pan gasket. Not a BG flush that will do more harm than good...
Brake flush? Excuse me? Truck has 20k miles... It lives in salt. You going to buy that guy new calipers when the bleeders snap? Or if I take a torch to the caliper to turn the bleeder, and it burns the piston or slide pin boots from excessive heat? Or damages a brake hose? You going to pay to fuss with that? Nah didn't think so, customer doesn't need your snake oil service douche. (Went round for round with that service manager told him he better never step out of his office and near a vehicle. He had no clue what it entailed working on them, didn't heed the warning I gave him, he pulled a car off a lift a quick lane kid was changing oil in and was at parts waiting for a filter, manager set the car down no filter no oil, pulled it outside locked that engine up tighter than a Nuns you know what)
Managers and writers like to over promise and under deliver. Always seemed to be the way for me and other techs. Someone and typically a pencil pusher at the desk, would call a customer and tell them your vehicle will be done today by 5... Then along comes parts and components didn't arrive. Or along comes a broken bolt in a pain in the ass spot to get to requiring more than needed originally to be removed to get at.
Best are the writers who diag from the desk and say yup 6.0s eat injectors 2k I'll change them all.
Come to find out it's a F450/550 with an aft axle tank that delaminated and killed the fuel pump and sent crap into the heads. Or they really goof up and it's a 6.4 that a high pressure pump grenaded and sent metal throughout the entire fuel system. And the truck never had fuel filters changed before, and the water in fuel light is on. What started as a warranfree job just turned CP after a loud mouth writer just stepped on his own pecker because the pump is full of rust
When ford cut the SLTS time for 6.4 cab R&R I started doing turbos and high pressure fuel pumps in the cab... Not worth the hours you don't get paid for to fight with not only lock tite threaded, but rust welding the bolts to the cage nuts, and the chintzy sheet metal tabs that spread and cause the nut and bolt to spin. Cab only comes off for short blocks. Dealer loved me doing that job hourly. Book it for 12-15 hours CP, I'd have turbos out in the cab on the floor in 2-3 pedestal off clean the valley of metal debris from blown turbo bearings going down the drains. If the parts were in stock that truck was done that day in 8. To be fair to the customer if the writer wanted to be, they could charge 8-10 instead of 12-15. Being hourly they made a lot of money off of me doing those.
My advice Jimmy. Move to a state with no rust. Flat rape isn't going anywhere anytime soon...
In a perfect world a mechanic should be paid a base salary. We all know from before thanksgiving until a couple weeks after Christmas time, unless you're a diesel tech in the north east prepping/repairing plow trucks for the snow, you're going to stand around most of the day. Might get a works package a generous .4-.5 and become a vulture scrutinizing every little thing because the state inspection is coming up. Or a service writer push snake oil flushes and services because his team has 0 hours...
after all the itemizing why and how he couldn't make time in the NY shop due to climate/rust issues ...
then NY_refuge proceeds to tell us how he "figured out" how to beat flat rate on a project: "When ford cut the SLTS time for 6.4 cab R&R I started doing turbos and high pressure fuel pumps in the cab... Not worth the hours you don't get paid for to fight with not only lock tite threaded, but rust welding the bolts to the cage nuts, and the chintzy sheet metal tabs that spread and cause the nut and bolt to spin. Cab only comes off for short blocks. Dealer loved me doing that job hourly. Book it for 12-15 hours CP, I'd have turbos out in the cab on the floor in 2-3 pedestal off clean the valley of metal debris from blown turbo bearings going down the drains. If the parts were in stock that truck was done that day in 8."
I'd bet that isn't the only project that NY_refuge figured out to apply his ingenuity, skills, tooling and tactics to beat the "flat rape" that he claims is so unfair to him by 50%.
IMO, there's something wrong with a service department that doesn't charge for time on projects to deal with stripped/broken/seized fasteners beyond the scope of the normal work. The scope of work in the flat rate manual does not include project extras such as these. It's fair to charge the customer to address these problem areas. Every shop I've ever worked for and in my own always billed for these additional needed labor hours to accomplish a project. If the shop doesn't see those extra hours as billable ... then it's time to move on. No shop ... especially a high volume dealership shop ... is going to survive and fulfill their work demand when the techs simply won't work there due to these practices.
Yes, I've seen this happen where an entire crew walked off the job over cr&&py shop management screwing the techs. Didn't happen overnight, but over a period of months. Word traveled fast around the tech community in the area and nobody seemed interested in applying for the jobs offered. That's the point where the GM and Owner are looking at their shop management and service writers ... are making significant changes in their program if they want the business to survive. Or they're finding "techs" who are still willing to work under these conditions. I've also seen the consequences of when they didn't ... where the franchise was directed to either sell out or would be taken away from the dealership. There's a lot of hidden reasons why some franchises do change hands, it's not just an owner decided that he'd rather do something else or the buyout offer was so good he'd jump on all that money.
In NY_refuge's case ... he did what he needed to do for himself. Moved out of the NY rust belt dealership and headed to FL where it appears he's happy now. Good on him.
Hint: the NY techs he left behind have the same option of denial of service.
after all the itemizing why and how he couldn't make time in the NY shop due to climate/rust issues ...
then NY_refuge proceeds to tell us how he "figured out" how to beat flat rate on a project: "When ford cut the SLTS time for 6.4 cab R&R I started doing turbos and high pressure fuel pumps in the cab... Not worth the hours you don't get paid for to fight with not only lock tite threaded, but rust welding the bolts to the cage nuts, and the chintzy sheet metal tabs that spread and cause the nut and bolt to spin. Cab only comes off for short blocks. Dealer loved me doing that job hourly. Book it for 12-15 hours CP, I'd have turbos out in the cab on the floor in 2-3 pedestal off clean the valley of metal debris from blown turbo bearings going down the drains. If the parts were in stock that truck was done that day in 8."
I'd bet that isn't the only project that NY_refuge figured out to apply his ingenuity, skills, tooling and tactics to beat the "flat rape" that he claims is so unfair to him by 50%.
IMO, there's something wrong with a service department that doesn't charge for time on projects to deal with stripped/broken/seized fasteners beyond the scope of the normal work. The scope of work in the flat rate manual does not include project extras such as these. It's fair to charge the customer to address these problem areas. Every shop I've ever worked for and in my own always billed for these additional needed labor hours to accomplish a project. If the shop doesn't see those extra hours as billable ... then it's time to move on. No shop ... especially a high volume dealership shop ... is going to survive and fulfill their work demand when the techs simply won't work there due to these practices.
Yes, I've seen this happen where an entire crew walked off the job over cr&&py shop management screwing the techs. Didn't happen overnight, but over a period of months. Word traveled fast around the tech community in the area and nobody seemed interested in applying for the jobs offered. That's the point where the GM and Owner are looking at their shop management and service writers ... are making significant changes in their program if they want the business to survive. Or they're finding "techs" who are still willing to work under these conditions. I've also seen the consequences of when they didn't ... where the franchise was directed to either sell out or would be taken away from the dealership. There's a lot of hidden reasons why some franchises do change hands, it's not just an owner decided that he'd rather do something else or the buyout offer was so good he'd jump on all that money.
In NY_refuge's case ... he did what he needed to do for himself. Moved out of the NY rust belt dealership and headed to FL where it appears he's happy now. Good on him.
Hint: the NY techs he left behind have the same option of denial of service.
Yup just like blend doors. I never pulled dashes out of those trucks 08-10 to do... Got a truck for that as well. 3 hours vs 9-11 depending on which blend door actuator it is.
There are many tricks I don't speak of that if ford learned of would burry techs on warranty.
My experience has always been that the writers, and managers, who've never turned a wrench a day in their life, are what ruined the industry... Corporatism is a mother f'er. Make bubba all the money! And not so much as a thanks for coming in today. They never once would Bill more hours for those issues, nor add the additional time to the original quote in order to cover it SHOULD that arise. They were too worried securing the "sale" of the job and being customer friendly. Me not so much. Be honest and you don't have anything to worry about. I too have had my share of the gravy train queens. The good ol boys club. I had my ways of slowly and surely getting a share of the gravy.
Not that I hoarded it. But when I had a guy in the shop hurting for hours, and I absolutely detest doing front end work (in NY) if I sold 8 hours in Diesel engine repairs, knocked it out in 8 or less, and someone was hurting for hours due to a scumbag dispatcher... I took matters into my own hands and would say here... I've got the golden ticket, this truck needed engine work but I got em for front end work alignment and tires, do ball joints both sides, 5hrs per side bro. Plus an alignment and tires. Hey hourly kid, put down the phone and stop posting memes on Facebook, mount and balance 4 tires for him. Those that had computer dispatching I had my ways of getting the dispatchers code, I'd go in and switch the tech number and assign the labor to that tech for him to do. Flag sheets duh, fill out your sheet with the RO. Mine is already on the hard copy for the story on the engine work.
That drove service managers nuts because I turned the shop against them and tried to run it the way I would. I worked at one ford dealer in NY for many years. Loved it there. Manager turned wrenches with us, my interview that man ws in the shop doing head gaskets in the cab of a 6.0 standing on a drag link. The next 2 dealers, I made the management heads spin and exposed them for the frauds they were... I'm what you call the trouble maker... I don't keep quiet. I learn everything about the place and use it against them for my and my coworkers benefit.
Much like I did my first week down here looking for a job and only being offered 16-18 an hour tops flat rate... Oh we don't have state income taxes.
Nope ya don't.
Snap on gets the same money for tools. So does MAC MATCO CROMWELL Craftsman and harbor freight.
You sell vehicles for the same money as they do in NY
You charge the same per hour labor rate as they do in NY
Jokes on you. I called asking about a salesmans job, a parts job, and service writers job. You goofed and guess what... I know what you pay. So don't tell me that because you have a shop foreman or lead tech who's been here 15 years and he's only pulling 18 an hour and **** would hit the fan if he found out what I made, that you can't afford to pay me at least 25 an hour... I wasn't born yesterday. You mean to tell me at 125 an hour for Diesel engine work, you can't afford to pay me what I'm worth and expect me to believe your overhead is that high that you need to make 105 dollars an hour profit off of my work in a shop that's not air conditioned because you refuse to pay your employees and just because that dummy will who're himself out for that little money and manages to get by I should lower my standard of living so you suites and ties can take your boats out to the keys every weekend... Not buying it. Bet your boys would be happy to find out what you make off of them...
I have to spread the love around before repping you again, but really like your attitude! I don't understand why people live in NY anyway - salt rusts your cars, can't own guns, everything costs too much, the climate stinks. Only possible upside is there is a ton of money to be made in NYC, but, to me it's just not worth it.
Totally agree, too, about a boss who knows how to do the job you do, and actually does the work at least some of the time. This sort of boss knows things that the "book learning" boss can't successfully be taught.
Money isn't in NYC. NYC is a dirty disgusting place that is ruled by the most self centered self entitled pricks. I loved NY aside from it's ridiculous taxes and laws. Could jump on a quad, a dirt bike, a snowmobile and ride for days. Could race stock cars at lebanon valley, accord, glenville, Fonda. Not down here.
Got my pee pee spanked unloading my quad at a beach. No signs to say I couldn't...
It's beautiful in the Adirondacks. I get a kick out of the kids down here that claim "I'm country" no fool, your an urbanite this is the tropical version of Poughkeepsie. Shut up.
Ny state is beautiful but run by the greediest power hungriest corrupt politicians cough cough cuomo spitzer. Cough.
On the bright side I don't need a helmet to jump on my harley... no emissions inspections however with the roaches on the side of 95 and all over with ball joints screaming when some blue hair goes to make a tight turn into a parking lot... There should be safety inspections but that's just me... No cats DPFs EGR sign me up!
I worked in union shops/hourly, hourly independent shops, and flat-rate shops.
I made the most money and had the highest personal satisfaction working flat-rate. My customer service rankings were among the best and I had very few ... in some years ... no "come-backs".
But I left that environment to the ultimate level of personal responsibility and accountability by opening up my own shop. Every dime I had went into that shop to open the doors, and for years I made a very modest living as a one or two man shop.
It was only when I expanded the shop to meet customer demand and hired more techs/secretary/shop go-fer and bought more equipment, diagnostic gear, machine tools (we did our own cylinder boring, head rebuilding ... everything but crank and rod grinding/alignment) that I started to make an above average living.
My techs had a choice ... they could work hourly at a competitive wage and be guaranteed 40 hr weeks, or they could work flat rate. I did most of the diagnostic work on electrical/FI/engine mechanical systems as part of my service writing chores for the business. Over 35 years, the "best" techs I had always chose to work flat-rate, and I held all of my staff to a high level of performance. We did a lot of "verification of completed repairs" before cars were released back to clients, so those niggling little come-back situations were usually caught and taken care of before the car left the shop. And I was fanatical about car condition inbound and outbound ... I didn't want to ever hear of a customer complaint that something worked and then didn't when we'd completed other work. In 35 years, the worst complaint I ever got from a customer ... and it was several years after the event ... was that a radar detector left on the dash of his car was missing when the car was returned to him.
My guys understood that working as a team from time to time was essential to their best interests. Lending a hand for a couple minutes when needed was cheerfully given. For a more major project requiring two people, the 2nd guy would also clock in on the project and share in the billable time. I only had one guy in the shop for years who worked exclusively on his projects. He was my bench transmission tech, and he preferred to work in the evenings by himself to do the rebuilds with the parts ordered to be on hand for the work. In ten years, he had only one transmission not work properly upon installation ... turned out it had a cracked trans housing from accident damage which could not work properly. The trans had been to two shops before us who had never been able to get it to work right when the car was restored by a P&B shop.
I personally did most of the unit room work ... cylinder boring, cylinder head work. My guys could do an engine tear-down and come back the next day to have the component work done, sitting on the bench waiting to be reassembled. Welding work such as exhaust systems? I had techs who were masters, and I'm not good at that stuff. Brakes? we had access to a brake drum/rotor lathe when needed. Parts cleaning? I had the 3rd Better Engineering parts washer cabinet sold in the region; on those days when we had a lot of parts to be cleaned, it was as valuable as having another employee. My techs appreciated the convenience; they could be tearing stuff apart and already have parts in the washer getting cleaned while they did other tasks. (Even today, where I don't have a retail shop anymore, I still have my parts washing machines, ultrasonic tank (big enough for transmission valve bodies or internal parts), and even a bench-top ultra sonic washer for carbs and hydraulic parts).
Here's the important detail: My flat rate guys were taking home $50,000+/year in the 1980's-early/mid 1990's. The ones that couldn't produce to that level were down the road pretty quickly, usually within a day to a couple of weeks. And when times were slow and we didn't have as much work, some of them appreciated the opportunity to take a few days off to go play. For the most part, these guys today are taking home 6-figure incomes in the biz. They're sharp, with good hand and diagnostic skills. I call 'em "clever and wise", they've invested the time/effort/energy/tooling to work efficiently and effectively and are reaping the benefits of having done so. But all of us are aging, too ... I'm well past retirement age and my former crew will soon be in those years, too. Some are bringing a child of theirs into the shop, some are actively planning a generational turn-over ... and some will sell their shops when the time comes.
I still work today in both formats; hourly for some projects (and I try my best to deliver full value), but most of my real earnings come from "bid" projects where I'm working for a fixed payment for the project. As a semi-retired tech these days, the project challenges are appreciated. Given the disparity in earnings per project, I'd still rather work flat-rate even though I don't move as quickly as I did years ago.
PS: for those who are in situations where flat-rate isn't working out for them ... there are myriad reasons why. A change over to hourly pay will not necessarily cure the problems in management/favoritism/shop work flow type issues. There will still be a lot to complain about. But if you're serious, competent, motivated and dedicated to the biz, there are ways to be successful ... especially in view of the demand for your services. It will take effort, training, investment and a passion for the work. Intelligence, professional skills are needed. If you can't or won't bring all of these aspects to the table, maybe it's you that needs to seek out other avenues to make a living.
If you were in So Cal near me you would get my business. My mechanics is 38 miles away from me. And I have no problem doing the drive. Why? He's honest, wont bs me on needed work. Doesn't try to upsell stuff and keeps and shows all my parts. The guy actually kept the fluids he drained to show that he did it.
I gave a uncle and a cousin both mechanics. 30 years and 6 years. Uncle can't wait to retire and cousin is going back to school because she he sees mechanic work as a dead end. Both pull well over 90k a year. They just hate doing the work. It's at a dealership so that may be part if the reason why.
Good mechanics are getting harder to find. Lots of old timers are retiring I bet there are mechanics today that don't know how to change points or work on a carbureted engine.
If you were in So Cal near me you would get my business. My mechanics is 38 miles away from me. And I have no problem doing the drive. Why? He's honest, wont bs me on needed work. Doesn't try to upsell stuff and keeps and shows all my parts. The guy actually kept the fluids he drained to show that he did it.
I gave a uncle and a cousin both mechanics. 30 years and 6 years. Uncle can't wait to retire and cousin is going back to school because she he sees mechanic work as a dead end. Both pull well over 90k a year. They just hate doing the work. It's at a dealership so that may be part if the reason why.
Good mechanics are getting harder to find. Lots of old timers are retiring I bet there are mechanics today that don't know how to change points or work on a carbureted engine.
Points give me a match book.
Distributors are cake. Then again I was building and racing stock cars since I was 16...
Carbs are a breeze.
I go one step further I take pictures/video on my phone as well as save parts. And when shop permitted, I'd show the customer what was up. They have a right to know. It's better that way they leave understanding not feeling like yup got screwed again.
Funny how a boiler/furnace can chit the bed in the winter people have no issue calling a plumber for 200 an hour and have them fix their boiler...
Or pay a doctor
Or pay an electrician
I'd like to see licensing in this field. Weed out the hacks and butchers hell you need a license to cut hair...
ASEs are only to prove you know how to take a test. Make ASEs hands on to weed them out too. Ford didn't require ASE to be master or SR Master anymore. Why? Took techs out of their bays and if one productive tech is out for any reason the shop backs up for a week just for one day he's out.
At least with NY if you hold an inspectors license (I held heavy duty and regular safety emissions) and you ship a vehicle that fails and it comes back on you-your drivers license gets whacked too...
I do work at a dealership but I am hourly and refuse to go flat rape (you read that right) because I've been there for almost 3 years now and I've seen what it does to both the people and the work they put out. So how about addressing my points instead of just making a joke?
P.S. I'm writing this at home on my computer, I don't even own a cell phone
Funny.....my brother works for a dealership and would never work for hourly. Why? He makes twice as much money! Work smarter not harder.
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