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What tells you I'm a bad tech from me stating that labor times for services and repairs are getting shorter and shorter? That's demonstrable just from looking at the flat rate times on the same model vehicle over the years. Ex. On a 1995 Saturn S-Series, the book time to replace the clutch is 7.3 hours, on a 2002 Saturn S-Series its 6.7 hours. Same vehicle, same engine, same transmission, same damn vehicle pretty much, but the book time on the newer one is shorter, why is that?
Could it be that manufacturers and dealers are shaving labor times slowly over the years to chip away at wages?
I wont go there, since Ive given you examples before.
Your using examples that are years old, I doubt there are many 95 or 02 Saturns on the road. 2nd, you ever stop and think the manufacturers have change the procedure to do something. Maybe someone found a way to cut that time down. IF you were a properly trained tech, you would know that. Ive said more already than I wanted to.
'Brake job use to be 2.0 hours now 1.6 hours'. I replaced 2 rotors and pads in .6 hour on my Honda. What does a professional with all the right tools do with that extra hour? Are we paying for his lunch break?
'Brake job use to be 2.0 hours now 1.6 hours'. I replaced 2 rotors and pads in .6 hour on my Honda. What does a professional with all the right tools do with that extra hour? Are we paying for his lunch break?
Most shops have a set labor rate for brakes e.g. 1.6 hours per axle regardless of the vehicle.
As cars get more and more complex and harder to work on/service, you'd think the flat rate labor times for doing said jobs would increase, but the opposite is true.
For example, most oil changes used to pay 0.5 hours, they've now been cut down to 0.3 hours. Most older vehicles were easy to change the oil on, but nowadays lots of them have skidplates to remove, etc. Yup, put more crap in the way, make it even harder, and cut the labor time down, makes total sense right?
Tire rotations used to pay 0.6 now they're 0.4. A transmission service used to pay an hour, but now it's down to 0.7 hours. Front brake job used to pay 2.0 hours, now down to 1.6 hours. The list goes on and on. They shave little tenths here and there off each job and chip away at our paychecks, making it hard to make a living as an auto tech. Especially under warranty, don't EVER tell anyone about finding shortcuts/tricks on warranty jobs, if the manufacturer gets wind of it, the already skimpy labor time will be cut even further.
Both manufacturers and dealerships seem more concerned with cutting costs than paying techs fairly. Dealerships cut labor times, raise hourly labor rates, and pocket the profits while the tech gets screwed. The manufacturers design POS vehicles, then expect you to fix them for next to nothing under warranty. And warranties on vehicles just keep getting more and more extended.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think they're designing vehicles to be less and less reliant on techs and to make us all glorified parts changers who just plug in a computer, it says x part is bad, so you replace x part. All as a way to lower the wages paid to said techs. But you're still going to need competent people to do the work, and from what I've seen dealerships are driving them out the door and replacing them with the guy fresh off the street who doesn't know jack and will work for peanuts. And THEN they complain they can't find good techs! If you want a good tech, you're going to have to pay them accordingly. Pay peanuts, get monkeys! Can't wait for shops to be begging for competent techs to work for them and they all refuse, only then will the industry get the major overhaul it's needed for many years. We need shops to be begging US to work for them, not us begging them for a job!
What do you guys think about ever decreasing labor times and pay checks in the auto industry?
I don’t know too much about shrinking pay checks, but I do know about why your labor times are being reduced. Somewhere someone has done one of two things: they have either gotten hold of someone at the manufacturing plant and been given the cycle time for performing the tasks you mention, or they are using industry accepted times that were developed by engineers performing time studies.
Of course, either of these times were established in ideal conditions, not the real world conditions you have to deal with. Used to, you could always build in a little extra time for the person doing the job, but computers have pretty much eliminated any fluff. I’ve done hundreds of time studies, and in today’s world all of the software programs have a built in bias towards management.
Fair or not, and it is NOT fair, but dealerships are no different than manufacturing plants. They all work on a very slim profit margin, so to increase revenues they have to either reduce costs or raise prices. Or as in the situations you described, some do both. Like I said....it isn’t fair. What it is however is reality. And “reality†don’t feed your kids!
... but if a consumer puts cost above all else they're cutting their own throats!
Couldn't agree more.
Just to offer a counterpoint:
Frankly we don't care what Mitchell, No Data, or our competitors say "should" be charged for a given service or repair. We are not the most expensive and we're not the cheapest. What most affluent consumers want (the demographic we cater to) is value. When someone balks at or whines about our estimate we kindly remind them (if necessary) of the value in choosing us which includes but isn't limited to the following:
24 month/24k mile warranty on parts and labor.
A reputation that is backed by a 40 year-old rock-solid business.
A professional staff that goes out of their way to make the customer feel appreciated throughout the process.
A professional facility and the tools/equipment to do the repairs and maintenance to the highest standards.
Insurance protection that will cover their prized possession and any other losses that they may incur in the event of an unfortunate incident. (Jimmy, do you have Garage Owner's insurance yet for your mobile auto repair biz?)
And arguably the most important benefit our customers receive: Our respect and loyalty toward them.
After this if they still believe we're too expensive, we part ways and agree it's not a good fit, at least this time. You win some; you lose some.
Been doing business this way for 40 years and we're more successful and profitable than ever.
Jimmy, it's only going to get worse. If you have the drive, talent, and intellect open your own shop. Then you'll be the one making money off of every tech you employ.
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
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Ever Shrinking Labor Times
1) Most Everything is more 'modularized' fixes are a fraction of the time previously required
2) Service items are generally much easier to replace (i.e. brakes)
3) Rare that anyone does SIGNIFICANT repairs... engine rebuilds / heads / cams...
Throw away cars
E-diagnosis and 'plug-n-play' techs, Skill required (?) not significant
Regarding the comments about old techs retiring.... NOBODY (dealers) is gonna be begging for techs ... Only people who drive 'fixers' (Fewer every day). Dealer will be MUCH happier selling new cars to clueless consumers who know nothing about Fixing... It breaks? throw it away and buy a new one.
Planned obsolescence? With plastics and electronics you have no other choice... Toss it.
Don't understand what part you disagree with me on. So you think it's fair to make vehicles harder to service and pay the people servicing them less time than what it actually takes to do the work? How would you like going to work for 8 hours and getting paid for 4?
I understand perfectly what you’re saying. It is no longer a viable way to make a living. A family member of mine just retired after flat-rating for nearly 50 years & it really broke down his body.
He always advises the young guys to get out of the business & some listen, but many, because they are young, can’t foresee the future, & “love to work on cars”.
For myself, I think you guys should not be so secretive with each other about your hourly, & maybe should unite & unionize, but I know many will disagree with me.
I understand perfectly what you’re saying. It is no longer a viable way to make a living. A family member of mine just retired after flat-rating for nearly 50 years & it really broke down his body.
He always advises the young guys to get out of the business & some listen, but many, because they are young, can’t foresee the future, & “love to work on cars”.
"really broke down his body"?
I've been working on cars as my vocation for over 4 decades and intend to do it another 20+ years, Lord willing. It's an honest living that I make no apologies for. As for wear and tear on the body... what does that even mean? Is it physically demanding with an occasional laceration? Yep. Have we become such freaking wussies that a man can't do a man's work? Would you say a morbidly obese guy with a desk job "broke down his body" or is he just a fat slob who will most likely die of a heart attack before the age of 65?
I suspect your family member was not very good at his craft and it certainly sounds as though he had no passion for it. I highly recommend that young people who love cars get into the field. In our area starting pay for a newbie is 40k and a sharp guy with 5+ years under his belt can knock down 80-90k.
What's so bad about making that kind of dough working 45 hours a week and loving what you do?
I'm just curious, and it does pertain to the original post IMO, how do you keep up with modern technologies? Do you do it all, or just the main systems?
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