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Old Today, 05:39 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
4,501 posts, read 4,537,528 times
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https://jalopnik.com/the-fascinating...pla-1829257860

Volkswagen, the company that brought us Dieselgate, wants us forget its last eco-disaster by promising to bring affordable electric cars to the masses starting in 2020. Those cars will ride on an all-new electric platform called MEB. The automaker calls it “one of the most important projects in the history of Volkswagen,” and says MEB will underpin more than 1 million EVs per year starting in 2025. Last fall, I had a chance to look at the new architecture and speak with some engineers. Here’s what I learned.
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Old Today, 07:14 AM
 
Location: Podunk, IA
2,923 posts, read 1,352,157 times
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Very interesting.

I see one big difference between the philosophy of VW and Tesla.
Tesla is trying to build scale by selling expensive EVs mostly in the U.S. and making everything themselves.
VW is trying to build scale by selling cheap EVs mostly in China and partnering with electronics giants LG and Samsung to do it.

It'll be interesting to see how it turns out.
From a financial standpoint, VW obviously has a huge advantage... they seemingly have unlimited cash to throw at EVs.

If it goes anything like appliances, I wouldn't bet against them.
I was at looking at them the other day and it seemed like every other thing was an LG or Samsung.
It wasn't that long ago that they were nobodies in that business.
And most cars today are just another appliance.
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Old Today, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit Michigan
3,225 posts, read 865,092 times
Reputation: 2622
Quote:
Originally Posted by eaton53 View Post
Very interesting.

I see one big difference between the philosophy of VW and Tesla.
Tesla is trying to build scale by selling expensive EVs mostly in the U.S. and making everything themselves.
VW is trying to build scale by selling cheap EVs mostly in China and partnering with electronics giants LG and Samsung to do it.

It'll be interesting to see how it turns out.
From a financial standpoint, VW obviously has a huge advantage... they seemingly have unlimited cash to throw at EVs.

If it goes anything like appliances, I wouldn't bet against them.
I was at looking at them the other day and it seemed like every other thing was an LG or Samsung.
It wasn't that long ago that they were nobodies in that business.
And most cars today are just another appliance.
After all VW is the 2nd largest automaker in the world so they have the money and the resources unlike Tesla witch is surviving on creditors.
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Old Today, 10:59 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
21,172 posts, read 38,170,199 times
Reputation: 21446
I expect VW can handle it...

VW has been building EV and Hybrid..since 1970's (in proto and some markets) Probably MUCH earlier in R&D only.

They have some great Diesel Hybrids (which are REALLY efficient since diesels like to run that way (Ask you local locomotive ). The VW Lupo Diesel Hybrids were getting 80mpg+ 20 yrs ago (when I was living and working in Europe)


OP (Vision67) is probably aware his previous employer sponsored employees to invent / construct EV's in the 1970's (and had EV parking at ALL USA factories in 1970s). We built (12) in NoCO.

(I recently saw one (EV) still driving around that was built by some of our Oregon employees during 1970's)

Probably born of the Mr Sharkey variety / clan.

Mr.Sharkey's Pusher Trailer
Mr.Sharkey's 1981 VW Rabbit

Simple for VW to grab enough market to make it worthwhile. (wish they would bring Diesel Hybrid to USA (but will never happen).

I plan to make a HHV / diesel in my next free time (HHV is very limited and most prominent in AU) Trash trucks are PERFECT (already have the Hyd systems, plenty of MASS / weight / capacity for accumulators) .

In the meantime... pursuing 80 mpg on free fuel. started at 48, then 52, then as high as 62, but not yet 70mpg. Could do it Hyper miling like a Insight friend, but I am not keen on 40 mph on open roads. I kinda like 80mph. better than 40mph.
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Old Today, 11:16 AM
 
17,062 posts, read 18,281,107 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by easy62 View Post
After all VW is the 2nd largest automaker in the world so they have the money and the resources unlike Tesla witch is surviving on creditors.
Yeah but Elon can sell Tesla to a automaker or bring a major manufacturer as a partner. He has the line up of vehicles and people want them.
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Old Today, 02:27 PM
 
308 posts, read 77,509 times
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Tesla isn't surviving on creditors folks. It's 2019, and Tesla is way ahead in the EV design and manufacturing revolution.

If you have the time, play it on 2x and watch what expert Sandy Munro has to say about the Tesla Model 3 and Tesla's advanced engineering (and why they can do somethings that traditional auto will take much longer to do).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVnRQRdePp4
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Old Today, 03:02 PM
 
1,010 posts, read 959,783 times
Reputation: 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by eaton53 View Post
Very interesting.

I see one big difference between the philosophy of VW and Tesla.
Tesla is trying to build scale by selling expensive EVs mostly in the U.S. and making everything themselves.
VW is trying to build scale by selling cheap EVs mostly in China and partnering with electronics giants LG and Samsung to do it.

It'll be interesting to see how it turns out.
From a financial standpoint, VW obviously has a huge advantage... they seemingly have unlimited cash to throw at EVs.

If it goes anything like appliances, I wouldn't bet against them.
I was at looking at them the other day and it seemed like every other thing was an LG or Samsung.
It wasn't that long ago that they were nobodies in that business.
And most cars today are just another appliance.
That's an interesting observation. Tesla and VW are have had completely different starting points and strategies going forward. Tesla pretty much started from scratch back in 2008 and has had partnerships with both Daimler and Toyota. They have built most of the components themselves and sold powertrains for the MB B-class, Smart, 2nd gen Rav4 EV. I know Panasonic is a supplier for some of the battery components for Tesla.

This is very different from other auto manufacturers who rely on OEM parts manufacturers like Bosch, Denso, AC Delco, Continental, Aisin, Johnson Controls, Lear, Delphi, JATCO, Dana Holdings, BorgWarner, etc to make their components. The auto manufacturer typically designs and assembles the vehicles while the suppliers make the components.

Tesla started selling higher priced vehicles for higher margins rather than selling higher volume at lower margin. This boosted their prestige and allowed them to build out an impressive infrastructure of level 3 fast-charging network. If you think about it, it was smart for Tesla to start big with the Roadster and Model S. It created a higher demand where supply could not keep up. It also attracted a fan-base that was understanding of the products shortcomings and typically had multiple vehicles as an alternate means of travel. Imagine if they started out selling an average-priced car: lower margins, probably a lesser product, and a consumer base that wouldn't be as gracious with all the glitches and flaws.

I looked into buying the new e-Golf, but after reading about the passive-cooling battery and expected degradation it was easy to look towards other options. I believe the 1st gen e-Golf uses the same drive unit as the Fiat 500e (Bosch) but uses a passively-cooled battery (similar to the 1st gen Nissan Leaf), compared to the Fiat that uses an actively liquid-cooled battery pack. VW has a long way to go but it's easier to catch up after others have paved the way.

Full disclosure: I'm on owner of the following and have done a good amount of research before buying each one:
2001 VW Golf TDI
2006 Chevy Duramax
2007 Lexus Rx400h
2013 Fiat 500e
2013 Tesla Model S 85
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Old Today, 04:29 PM
 
Location: Podunk, IA
2,923 posts, read 1,352,157 times
Reputation: 3022
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwong7 View Post
I looked into buying the new e-Golf, but after reading about the passive-cooling battery and expected degradation it was easy to look towards other options. I believe the 1st gen e-Golf uses the same drive unit as the Fiat 500e (Bosch) but uses a passively-cooled battery (similar to the 1st gen Nissan Leaf), compared to the Fiat that uses an actively liquid-cooled battery pack.
GM showed the way on battery cooling with the Gen 1 Volt. It was very well done.
We've seen the last of passive cooling... batteries need a robust system, not a cheap one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeApelido View Post
Tesla isn't surviving on creditors folks. It's 2019, and Tesla is way ahead in the EV design and manufacturing revolution.
Wait until after Q1 results before declaring that.
They may have pulled ahead a lot of sales and could easily go back to losses.

Also, they are a hell of a long way from a manufacturing juggernaut.
A manufacturing juggernaut does not have an exhorbitant number of body and trim issues.
This is just shoddy assembly and/or lack of attention to detail.

https://www.truedelta.com/Tesla-Mode...liability-1376

Actually, the case could easily be made that they suck at it.

Manufacturing vehicles that don't have these type of problems are childsplay for most automakers.
Example... for VW body and trim are less than 10% of all issues.

Last edited by eaton53; Today at 04:52 PM..
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Old Today, 07:38 PM
 
Location: White House, TN
5,306 posts, read 3,708,300 times
Reputation: 3302
Seems like this could work out pretty well, very efficiently done. This might be just the push that the market needs to do the electric transition. They just need to be careful to make sure to differentiate the cars enough (and they've been doing that well with the MQB platform) and as for the range, 175 miles wouldn't be enough for me (I drive 106 miles per day) but 300 would be plenty. At least in the USA, gas vehicles will still dominate, but watch VW rack up electric sales once gas goes to 4 bucks or more a gallon.
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