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Old 01-23-2019, 04:12 AM
 
7,473 posts, read 2,815,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeApelido View Post
Now in fairness that wording doesn't mean Tesla owns the IP, but they are the only ones who can use it. Competitors will not have access to the same chemistry. I have no idea who easy to reverse engineer but does not seem easy.
If they’re pairing up with a Chinese battery company they won’t need to reverse engineer, they’ll just hand over all their engineering right to them.
China is you go to give away IP in exchange for the right to sell to their 1 billion people.
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Old 01-23-2019, 07:08 AM
 
2,102 posts, read 490,614 times
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Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
So, interesting. I thought Tesla's huge advantage in the market and in IP was their genius at battery technology. But a story today makes it clear that all Tesla battery systems are built with standard-format cells made by Panasonic - some imported, some built under license in Nevada. (The point of the story is that the new Gigafactory in China will use, surprise surprise, an alternate Chinese battery maker.)

So all that genius and innovation and seekret IP boils down to... building battery packs with someone else's long-established tech, just like Ryobi, Porter-Cable and Black & Decker? Huh.

What's next, Musk getting credit for inventing a round thing cars can roll on?
Parts are commodities, designing them and putting them together in such a way that consumers will become brand evangelists is what takes talent.

Auto manufacturers already have to invest heavily in factories just to accommodate final assembly, they’re not looking to vertically integrate for each component. Volume is picking up and they can negotiate prices without having to built their own “battery factory”.

If it helps customers sleep better at night, Elon can order his batteries private label so they can bear the Tesla name, too
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Old 01-23-2019, 11:28 AM
 
322 posts, read 81,142 times
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Originally Posted by Ziggy100 View Post
If they’re pairing up with a Chinese battery company they won’t need to reverse engineer, they’ll just hand over all their engineering right to them.
China is you go to give away IP in exchange for the right to sell to their 1 billion people.

Lol, well you're probably right.
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Old 01-23-2019, 12:28 PM
 
2,102 posts, read 490,614 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100 View Post
If they’re pairing up with a Chinese battery company they won’t need to reverse engineer, they’ll just hand over all their engineering right to them.
China is you go to give away IP in exchange for the right to sell to their 1 billion people.
Depends on how much money can be made per unit, and what the market is over there for a Tesla (-esque vehicle) that can use the same battery.

You can be a Walmart, or you can be an Apple store. Both companies are in the Fortune 10, but Walmart's revenue numbers come from operating 20x more stores, each with infinitely more square footage than an Apple store. Also look how long it took each company to get a spot in the Top 10 since conception.
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Old 01-23-2019, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
4,934 posts, read 1,624,428 times
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On one level, I am completely unsurprised that Tesla uses commodity batteries. It's a delicate and complex tech that is fully mature and hasn't had a breakthrough in more than a decade, and there is no sign of any meaningful advances on the horizon. Might as well just have an expert and capable company build them.

What surprises me is that if Tesla is known to the general public for two things, it's their cars (duh) and their wondrous genius with battery tech... Gigafactories and car power and home power, oh my!

That this genius consists entirely of battery pack management and not fundamental technology is... bemusing. I would have thought that they at least took standard, SOTA battery tech and optimized it for automotive and block storage (e.g. something like sheet or multicell configuration with maximum weight reduction for block use, not just a mega AA-holder with a microcontroller stuck on one side). I mean, every upscale smartphone has that.

So again Tesla's vaunted expertise devolves to... writing an app for it, tech ween style. More indication that Musk really has no idea how to run a heavy industry except in a San Jose code factory model.
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Old 01-23-2019, 01:03 PM
 
2,102 posts, read 490,614 times
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Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
On one level, I am completely unsurprised that Tesla uses commodity batteries. It's a delicate and complex tech that is fully mature and hasn't had a breakthrough in more than a decade, and there is no sign of any meaningful advances on the horizon. Might as well just have an expert and capable company build them.

What surprises me is that if Tesla is known to the general public for two things, it's their cars (duh) and their wondrous genius with battery tech... Gigafactories and car power and home power, oh my!

That this genius consists entirely of battery pack management and not fundamental technology is... bemusing. I would have thought that they at least took standard, SOTA battery tech and optimized it for automotive and block storage (e.g. something like sheet or multicell configuration with maximum weight reduction for block use, not just a mega AA-holder with a microcontroller stuck on one side). I mean, every upscale smartphone has that.

So again Tesla's vaunted expertise devolves to... writing an app for it, tech ween style. More indication that Musk really has no idea how to run a heavy industry except in a San Jose code factory model.
But as we're finding out, that's what sells cells! Neither customers nor Elon are interested in paying twice as much to "reinvent" the battery in a different form factor that is only marginally more efficient. The smartphone battery analogy doesn't really SCALE economically when you consider the difference in price for 1400 mAh of capacity. Two NiMH AA cells ($0.30, maybe?) vs. $15-30 for a sandwich Li-Ion battery? Get real!

Much like new technologies for network connections aren't released without at least a 10x change in performance (10 Mbps ethernet, 100 Mbps ethernet, 1000 Mbps. . .) the actual hard battery tech isn't released until they can at least double the range, there's no use.
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Old 01-23-2019, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
4,934 posts, read 1,624,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddm2k View Post
Neither customers nor Elon are interested in paying twice as much to "reinvent" the battery in a different form factor that is only marginally more efficient.
I'm not arguing it should be any other way. If I have a single point here, it's "Oh, hey, look at the funny man behind the curtain!"

I don't mind a little showmanship and razzle-dazzle in consumer sales. But Musk's illusion of fantastical, all-new, all-singing, all-dancing wondrous genius (which is pretty much all of Tesla's appeal) is chipping away faster than they build solid reasons for success.

As alluded above, too: Apple fans who have drunk too much of the kool-aid get positively enraged when it's pointed out that the original iPhone was built entirely from, not just existing tech, but tech that was notably behind the curve at the time. Good engineering choice for reliability and cost control, but at complete odds with the myth/sales premise that the entire thing was made from wondrous elements that could have only come from Jobs' hiney.
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Old 01-23-2019, 01:32 PM
 
2,102 posts, read 490,614 times
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Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
I'm not arguing it should be any other way. If I have a single point here, it's "Oh, hey, look at the funny man behind the curtain!"

I don't mind a little showmanship and razzle-dazzle in consumer sales. But Musk's illusion of fantastical, all-new, all-singing, all-dancing wondrous genius (which is pretty much all of Tesla's appeal) is chipping away faster than they build solid reasons for success.
I think many of these great companies that have considerable brand-evangelism start with a small, cult-like following, and grow exponentially with a combination of good marketing (riding the coattails of the clean energy PSAs) without actually saying it. Because, to consumers, the Tesla is still a sexy car, not known first and foremost for being efficient in quite the same way as the Prius.
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Old 01-23-2019, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
4,934 posts, read 1,624,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddm2k View Post
I think many of these great companies that have considerable brand-evangelism start with a small, cult-like following, and grow exponentially with a combination of good marketing (riding the coattails of the clean energy PSAs) without actually saying it. Because, to consumers, the Tesla is still a sexy car, not known first and foremost for being efficient in quite the same way as the Prius.
Exactly. But Musk is stumbling in ways that are using up this honeymoon wonder faster than the concrete can be poured.
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Old 01-23-2019, 02:18 PM
 
2,102 posts, read 490,614 times
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Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
Exactly. But Musk is stumbling in ways that are using up this honeymoon wonder faster than the concrete can be poured.
Did interviewing while using drugs help or hurt this timeline?
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