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Old 02-19-2019, 05:09 PM
 
7,504 posts, read 2,874,891 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luciano700 View Post
Good luck when your car gets hacked
If you were really worried about hacking you wouldn’t be on the Internet right now and your life savings would be in cash under your mattress.
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Old 02-19-2019, 05:15 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
5,598 posts, read 1,878,096 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100 View Post
If you were really worried about hacking you wouldn’t be on the Internet right now and your life savings would be in cash under your mattress.
On the internet, you can sit behind a firewall and keep out all but the most elite hacking attempts, few of whom are likely to be interested in your cat porn and tax returns.

AVs are going to have to have wide-access, rapid-connection networking to interface with all the magical support and information webs they move within, including other vehicles. And isn't it grand that 5G is being rolled out without any comprehensive attention to security - the providers all kicked and screamed that it was too much trouble and would cost too much. So multiply the early years of the net and those halcyon days of viruses, trojans, malware and trivial access protection by the "Internet of Things"... which includes cars, your home security system and your nanny cams.

If there were brilliant dickweeds out there crafting and trading viruses just so they could munge systems and get the screen to draw their initials, imagine how much fun they'll have creating multi-car pileups.
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Old 02-19-2019, 05:19 PM
 
7,504 posts, read 2,874,891 times
Reputation: 5058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
On the internet, you can sit behind a firewall and keep out all but the most elite hacking attempts, few of whom are likely to be interesting in your cat porn and tax returns.

AVs are going to have to have wide-access, rapid-connection networking to interface with all the magical support and information webs they move within, including other vehicles. And isn't it grand that 5G is being rolled out without any comprehensive attention to security - the providers all kicked and screamed that it was too much trouble and would cost too much. So multiply the early years of the net and those halcyon days of viruses, trojans, malware and trivial access protection by the "Internet of Things"... which includes cars, your home security system and your nanny cams.
If we’re talking about hypothetical self driving cars, we can talk hypothetical firewalls for self driving cars.
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Old 02-19-2019, 05:21 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
5,598 posts, read 1,878,096 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100 View Post
If we’re talking about hypothetical self driving cars, we can talk hypothetical firewalls for self driving cars.
Right, but security was left out of the fundamental design, meaning all players (hundreds and thousands of them) have to handle it themselves.

Nothing there that can go wrong, leaving security holes you can drive a Model 3 through.
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Old 02-19-2019, 05:30 PM
 
11,635 posts, read 4,261,255 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OutdoorLover View Post
Most of the data from cars driving in self-driving mode, comes from them being operated on limited access highways. That's real world driving, but it's basically the simplest type of driving scenario and grossly incongruent with the wide range of environments, actors, situations, weather and lighting conditions, etc that are faced by human drivers.
Actually most of the CA data is driving on the secondary and less streets of Silicon Valley. And the vast majority of the Waymo accidents involves someone driving into the rear of a stopped or stopping AV. There are very few dynamic crashes. The only significant advantage for the AV in this environment is that it is all below 50 mph. To a large degree I would expect them to do better on an expressway. So in modern suburban traffic the AVs do quite well.

One can also argue that the weather in both Palo Alto and suburban Phoenix is generally pretty nice. So the AVs are avoiding heavy rain and snow. That will however come and eventually they will do it better than humans. Simply more knowledge and better sight.
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Old 02-19-2019, 05:35 PM
 
7,504 posts, read 2,874,891 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
Right, but security was left out of the fundamental design, meaning all players (hundreds and thousands of them) have to handle it themselves.

Nothing there that can go wrong, leaving security holes you can drive a Model 3 through.
There is no fundamental design. This is still science fiction in its earliest stages of being a viable technology. Everyone needs to remember this isn’t really a thing yet, much less a thing with fabricated security issues.
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Old 02-19-2019, 05:52 PM
 
11,635 posts, read 4,261,255 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OutdoorLover View Post
The Uber situation was stark, but no more so than some Tesla failures. In the case of the Uber pedestrian death, it first classified her as an unknown object, then a person, then a bike, if I recall... and you know what? If *anything* sizable is coming into your lane, it actually doesn't matter what it is, the right decision is to avoid striking it! Doesn't matter if it's a car, a bike, a pedestrian, a deer, a dog, or a man riding a unicycle and carrying a refrigerator - you name it - driving straight into it is a catastrophic and DUMB mistake!

Teslas have driven straight into at least 2 trucks that I have read about, and it's not like I am scouring the news for them - a parked firetruck and a moving 18-wheeler. In both cases, these were just gross, catastrophic errors. These are not "smart" systems, I think a lot of lay people overestimate the knowledge and "thinking" ability of these systems. Compared to a human being, they are DUMB - extremely narrow in their competence, shallow in their patchy knowledge, they lack context, and they have huge cognitive blind spots - that's why Musk-mobiles drive right into trucks and then Elon Musk says "Ooops, guess we didn't think of that, oh well, I'll just blame the customer and we'll see if we can prevent this particular catastrophe from occurring the next time." I cannot express how disappointed and angry I have been to see Musk blaming customers for his products' poor performance, even when it produces horrific consequences. The man is not a simpleton, he knows better, he just wants to escape responsibility and keep sales up.
The Uber system had the target in plenty of time and it was an absolutely obvious target. The failure was actually unthinkable...the software ignored it. That is why Uber shut down completely. It was not a defendable crash.

Tesla is working a different problem. It is trying to solve the problem without LIDAR. And Musk is bound and determined to pull it off. So Tesla has only visual and radar scans to the front and sides. Far less information than a LIDAR vehicle has. It may well be sufficient for high end cruise control but not clear it can go into the upper end of self driving. The one crash was the result of favoring the visual and discounting the radar as an overhead sign. Purportedly fixed with a software update for the radar sensors.

The stationary truck is a known problem with virtually all the high end cruise control. It deals with the crudeness of radar on differentiating stationary things that should be there and those that should not. Musk believes he can solve the problem with visual sensors and radar in combo. Not able to do so as of this point. The obvious solution of course is LIDAR which can immediately map that it is a truck in front not a street sign. But LIDAR has its problems and is not cheap.

And the Tesla drivers were both pushing the limits of the Tesla system by declining to take control.
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Old 02-19-2019, 05:57 PM
 
11,635 posts, read 4,261,255 times
Reputation: 5075
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
In your first statement are you saying that pedestrians and bicyclists will have to have transponders also in order to be protected from all those super safe AVs?

If traffic signals are eliminated at intersections how will walkers cross the street?

Yeah, we saw how "easily" that Uber AV detected that pedestrian in Tempe.
No though they become common and perhaps required on street operating bicycles. Joggers may also eventually adapt them though I doubt it will ever be required.

Some streets will obviously maintain indicators for pedestrians and bicyclists. Others may simply stop cars when pedestrians enter a crossing.
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Old 02-19-2019, 06:04 PM
 
11,635 posts, read 4,261,255 times
Reputation: 5075
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
On the internet, you can sit behind a firewall and keep out all but the most elite hacking attempts, few of whom are likely to be interested in your cat porn and tax returns.

AVs are going to have to have wide-access, rapid-connection networking to interface with all the magical support and information webs they move within, including other vehicles. And isn't it grand that 5G is being rolled out without any comprehensive attention to security - the providers all kicked and screamed that it was too much trouble and would cost too much. So multiply the early years of the net and those halcyon days of viruses, trojans, malware and trivial access protection by the "Internet of Things"... which includes cars, your home security system and your nanny cams.

If there were brilliant dickweeds out there crafting and trading viruses just so they could munge systems and get the screen to draw their initials, imagine how much fun they'll have creating multi-car pileups.
In general the self driving systems will be well insulated from mischief. Pretty easy to do. Virtually all cars today are computer controlled. You been hacked? That is because it is pretty much impossible

Navigation and entertainment systems will likely be more vulnerable and may need some fancy coding to keep it clean...but we do know how to do that.

So perhaps some nuisance value but nothing that should cause big safety problems.

5G is a distribution system and likely not the local communication between cars. The encryption lies above the level of the distribution system.
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Old 02-19-2019, 06:30 PM
 
Location: Coastal, NC
2,783 posts, read 2,162,844 times
Reputation: 3948
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvmensch View Post
In general the self driving systems will be well insulated from mischief. Pretty easy to do. Virtually all cars today are computer controlled. You been hacked? That is because it is pretty much impossible

Navigation and entertainment systems will likely be more vulnerable and may need some fancy coding to keep it clean...but we do know how to do that.

So perhaps some nuisance value but nothing that should cause big safety problems.

5G is a distribution system and likely not the local communication between cars. The encryption lies above the level of the distribution system.

The real fun hasn't started just yet. Wait until you mix these with humans driving together. Road rage, the autonomous doesnt stand a chance. Will be interesting to test them to see how they react.
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