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Old 02-09-2019, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Ft. Myers
16,936 posts, read 10,414,645 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DamJoe View Post
I have a 2007 Toyota Sequoia sr5 with about 150k miles. Iíve always used conventional oil but have been told synthetic oil would be better.

Engines get used to having certain oils in them. My son worked at an oil change place during college, and he told me sometimes seals will seep if you are using synthetic. I put Mobil One in my one hot rod, and after a while I found a little puddle under the front seal area on the floor. I had never had a leak there before.

I switched back to conventional oil, no more puddle. On an engine like yours, with 150 K on the clock, I would stay with what has worked so far...Ö.maybe even switching to a High Mileage blend of oil.
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Old 02-09-2019, 11:58 AM
 
1,039 posts, read 511,457 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by don1945 View Post
Engines get used to having certain oils in them. My son worked at an oil change place during college, and he told me sometimes seals will seep if you are using synthetic. I put Mobil One in my one hot rod, and after a while I found a little puddle under the front seal area on the floor. I had never had a leak there before.

I switched back to conventional oil, no more puddle. On an engine like yours, with 150 K on the clock, I would stay with what has worked so far...Ö.maybe even switching to a High Mileage blend of oil.

Hmm,

I switched to synthetic recently, and developed a small leak in the corner orange rubber gasket; top of intake manifold. These were all replaced 3 years ago.
I've already been back to said mechanic, who will re-do the job at no cost.
But that gasket should not have failed, so am now pondering switching back to conventional.
I've talked to several mechanics in fact, and nobody can seem to figure out why a motor w/only 70K would keep leaking from the exact same gasket.
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Old 02-09-2019, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Ft. Myers
16,936 posts, read 10,414,645 times
Reputation: 36497
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunbiz1 View Post
Hmm,

I switched to synthetic recently, and developed a small leak in the corner orange rubber gasket; top of intake manifold. These were all replaced 3 years ago.
I've already been back to said mechanic, who will re-do the job at no cost.
But that gasket should not have failed, so am now pondering switching back to conventional.
I've talked to several mechanics in fact, and nobody can seem to figure out why a motor w/only 70K would keep leaking from the exact same gasket.

Yeah, I'm not sure if it has to do with viscosity or the seeping ability of synthetic, but it can do that sometimes, it seems. I know some motors come off the assembly lines with it (Corvettes, etc) but maybe on an older engine design the seals are not capable of handling it.


Not saying this happens 100% of the time, but just something to watch for.
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Old 02-09-2019, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Vermont
345 posts, read 85,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapperL View Post
Wrong. There is no more lubricity in a synthetic than a conventional oil. Like most folks out there, you're reciting advertising BS. Do you have a clue what the difference is between a synthetic and conventional base oil these days? Let me help you with that. You'll find base oils come in various Groups. A Group 1 is a solvent refined base oil. This would have been what they used a hundred years ago. There is the Group II which is a hydrocracked base oil. There is the Group III which is the severely hydrocracked base oil. The Groups IV is primarily the the PAO base oils. ALL, read that again, ALL, with the exception of the Group I base oils, do not appear in nature and are man made. Because of that AND that some of the formulators who are looking after the companies bottom line, everything but the Group I is now considered a synthetic base. Back in the 90's, only the Group IV were considered a synthetic. Mobil and Castrol had a tif over it and the Advertising Council found in favor of Castrol. The ONLY thing the synthetic base oils bring to the formulation is stability. The Group III and IV, yesterdays synthetics, do not support the additive package. There must be a binder used to make them work together. Without a binder, wear increases dramatically. They do not provide any support for the seals. The formulators must include a seal swell agent or leaks abound. Synthetic based oils comes with issues, it's not perfection by any stretch of the imagination. The best based oils out there will be the blends. You get the advantages of both base oils and some of the disadvantages of synthetic based oils are solved with blends.


Then comes the viscosity spread. Ideally you want no more than a 20 point spread on multi-viscosity oils. The reason is the formulators will use a polymer to force the base oil to make a larger spread. These are the same polymers that fell out of suspension back in the 90's that sludged engines. While there have been improvements, pushed hard enough these polymers can sludge an engine, especially a low mileage engine.


There are books written about motor oils. Few understand how or where the specs come from that makes up our oils today. ALL car makers belong to ILSAC. ILSAC is the one that sets the standards for the oils we have. API is the enforcing arm of ILSAC but no car maker can sell an engine in the USA and have an oil specific to its engines. They can recommend a SAE viscosity range but it is not an absolute, like some want to read into a recommendation. The best oils out there are not always the most expensive. When it comes to stability, NO oil beats Pennzoil yellow bottle conventional in 10w-30, it's not even close. Research ASTM D5800 or KNOACK. The noted Pennzoil is half that (4.2) of any synthetic(lower is better). Let that sink in before you pay big money for a synthetic oil.


If you have the want, you can find the specs of most any oil out there at the PQIA website.
http://pqiamerica.com/PCMO_Sample_Su...2_15_2016.html
I freely admit my ignorance here, and please forgive my lack of reading comprehension, but do you mean that:

1) All motor oils are actually synthetic now, so there's no point in buying something advertised as synthetic because you're already using it, or

2) Motor oils which are synthetic or have a greater percentage of synthetic base will offer no wear advantages in any situations, such as extended OCI, extreme temperatures, shear strength in extreme-duty applications, etc. ?

I'm unsure what to take away from your post. Typically those oils advertised as "full synthetic" aren't much or any more expensive than those which aren't, especially if you catch them on sale - I typically don't pay more than $15 for a 5-quart of Mobile One.
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Old 02-09-2019, 12:50 PM
 
Location: in the soup
3,576 posts, read 1,492,318 times
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There's hardly any 'bad' motor oil available these days. It's not like things were 40+ years ago when engines would routinely be full of sludge and crusty oil soot. You've got to seriously abuse and/or neglect an engine to get that result with today's motor oils. Literally anything that meets any recent API spec will work fine in all but specialty applications.

That said, your 'group III' and higher synthetic oils do have better resistance to shear, oxidation, etc. than your cheaper oils.

Engine oil is changed for a few specific reasons: contamination via soot, water, fuel, etc. Viscosity reduction via shear, which inevitably happens as oil is churned through an engine. Oxidation due to high temps and time. That's really about it.

So in an ordinary commuter vehicle application where the oil isn't getting crazy hot,and it's not being run for 15,000 miles... you're changing that oil to remove contaminants. Soot, water, and fuel contaminate synthetic oil just the same as conventional oil. There's little if any advantage in this scenario.

Synthetic oils (generally speaking) have better cold flow properties. Better resistance to shear and oxidation. So if you need to start the engine at -40, go a long time between oil changes, or run the engine really hard... that's where synthetic oils start to make sense.

And there are a lot of vehicles out there these days that spec synthetic oil. Usually because the manufacturer is recommending long oil change intervals and/or getting a lot of power out of a tiny little engine.
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Old 02-09-2019, 01:17 PM
 
Location: in the soup
3,576 posts, read 1,492,318 times
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One place where I think synthetics are worthwhile is drivetrain fluids. ATF for example. It isn't changed nearly as often as engine oil. It's subject to as much heat as engine oil, and probably more shear. So to me synthetic ATF makes a lot of sense. Same could be said for gear oil etc. depending on application.
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Old 02-09-2019, 01:47 PM
 
Location: Ft. Myers
16,936 posts, read 10,414,645 times
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As one can see, a lot of it boils down to personal preference. Most of us find some product, and if it works, we stick with it, and swear it is the best. Kinda like Ford vs Chevy, which is best ?
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Old 02-09-2019, 02:18 PM
 
Location: Vermont
345 posts, read 85,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by don1945 View Post
As one can see, a lot of it boils down to personal preference. Most of us find some product, and if it works, we stick with it, and swear it is the best. Kinda like Ford vs Chevy, which is best ?
Usually there are some objective metrics in which one thing is better suited than another. E.g. one could measure the amount of metals being deposited in the oil and determine whether there's more bearing wear with one vs another.
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Old 02-09-2019, 02:21 PM
 
Location: Kirkland, WA (Metro Seattle)
3,744 posts, read 3,021,656 times
Reputation: 6595
Quote:
Originally Posted by DamJoe View Post
I have a 2007 Toyota Sequoia sr5 with about 150k miles. Iíve always used conventional oil but have been told synthetic oil would be better.
Though this is an absurd troll, let's pretend it's not and summarize a few opinions, closed by some facts:

When Mobil 1 was new, in the pits we used nothing but in our motorcycles. Few engines blew due to oil film failure, if-any. Dumb stunts and over-revving, maybe... long time ago now. Oil is a technology and we can all see how far that has come since c. 1995.

My 2001 911 Turbo was the most oil-sensitive vehicle I've owned. It really liked a flavor of Motul favored by the local speed shop. It worked better than other synthetics in that case, in one respect: the car burned a bit less. BTW, Porsche Turbos sometimes burn a quart every couple thousand, something to do with a little blow-by type of consumption from the turbos themselves. It's not the engine. I just kept a quart of two in the car and topped off when needed. Point being, my interval went to 3K miles before it needed a quart on the Motul vs. other brands which were about 1.5K. Maybe viscosity, maybe additives: who knows, but I kept good records and there it is.

As for my 118K mile Toyota Tacoma XRunner, I use whatever full synth they have handy at the dealer, or Japanese Auto place, when it's time for service and change it at 10K intervals as it says right there on the oil can (container). Better, worse, who knows but it's supercharged so the engine's working harder, though still far from stressed really. And that's how I'll play it remainder of my ownership, which will be until approximately the time Hell freezes over. After that, we'll change the fully-synth oil on the ice I guess.

How about this: "Any oil is better than none. For a definitive test, suggest sending it off to a lab via those Amsoil or similar test kits. If there are problems in the oil, or how long it's been in there, or the transmission, or many other things, that test will certainly reveal it. Anything else, from anyone else, outside of lab data is pure opinion and thus bunk."
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Old 02-09-2019, 02:26 PM
 
Location: Kirkland, WA (Metro Seattle)
3,744 posts, read 3,021,656 times
Reputation: 6595
Quote:
Originally Posted by EckyX View Post
Usually there are some objective metrics in which one thing is better suited than another. E.g. one could measure the amount of metals being deposited in the oil and determine whether there's more bearing wear with one vs another.
Correction: AFAIK, what you mentioned is the only objective metric (analyses) for condition of the oil. Includes particulate analysis and more, too, also as mentioned. Testing A to B to C to...is interesting, those articles are out there, free or behind paywalls, but obtainable. What they indicate is exactly what you'd think about synth vs. non-, but I'll leave that to the reader to discover.

The rest, outside of a reasonably-controlled experiment, is just opinion.
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