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It is hard to find a shop that actually diagnosis problems instead of throwing parts at the most common source of the problem and when that fails to produce results, move on to the next most likely parts. When you find a shop that actually does diagnosis, it usually does not last. The good techs move on after a while and of course the shop will not tell you where they went.
Part of the problem is people will not pay for diagnosis because they do not understand the value in it. "I paid $300 just to figure out what the problem is and now you want $150 more to fix the problem? That is a rip off!" What they do not realize is the $300 spent on diagnosis saved them $800 in unnecessary parts using the guess and check method.
Most people think diagnosis should be free. What they fail to realize is finding the problem takes more time than fixing the problem and time is money.
So the parts changer problem is a product of our own fault.
I think parts stores have played a huge roll in this.
I hear ads all the time on the radio for "free check engine light diagnosis" at the various big box auto parts stores. Yeah, the guy behind the counter at Autozone can plug a cheapo code reader in and get a DTC (example O2 Sensor Heater Circuit Malfunction (Bank 1 Sensor 1)) and say "Well it needs an O2 sensor. So they sell it to the customer, they replace it and bam, they still have a check engine light.
Turns out the wiring harness had been touching the exhaust and melted the insulation, shorting out the circuit. Something that a simple visual inspection would've revealed has been incorrectly diagnosed because the public perception is "You just plug a computer into the car and it tells you what's wrong"
Cheapness is also a factor in this, as well as impatience. I get people all the time asking me questions about their vehicles, but they all boil down to "What part do I need to replace?" They're so eager to shotgun a new part on and have it "fixed" and can't be bothered to have it diagnosed and fixed right.
So most people think a diagnosis should be for free then they haven’t been to a doctor have they. When was the last time a doctor gave you a free diagnosis never, than why should a garage give you one then they have to pay the mechanic to look at the vehicle and use equipment that the had to buy and maintain. Nothing in this world is free anymore people. Certain people expect people to work for nothing. A garage is doctors office for vehicles so why do some people have a hard time paying a office call for the vehicle when the pay one for their doctor.
Yup.
A plumber/electrician/HVAC tech/ etc. charges a flat fee JUST TO SHOW UP AND DIAGNOSE THE PROBLEM, that's not even counting the parts and labor necessary to correct it.
That's certainly hasn't been my experience. There are so few mechanics in my area that I can actually recommend it's appalling. Most of them are incompetent liars with pretty dubious "knowledge" of what they are doing.
I'm a car guy. It's not possible to BS me on anything regarding my cars. Most work, I can do myself, but as I've gotten older, I've had to take our vehicles in more because I either don't have the time or my time is worth more than paying someone to fix something.
I only recommend one mechanic shop who services a variety of "regular" vehicles. The owner is a great guy and still does a lot of the work in the shop himself. However, his experience and the shop's experience is sorely lacking with higher end vehicles. I took my 911 turbo to him once for an alignment... Well, they tried, but I had to go to the dealer for that. He's done good work on my Jeeps and other non performance vehicles. Out of many shops in the area, he's the only one I can recommend to someone with a clear conscience, because the other ones I've tried are full of shady people and business practices.
My wife has an ML63 AMG. Very few places can do in depth work on her car other than the dealer... and the dealer we have closest to us, I don't know whether it was the service advisor or the mechanic himself, but they've tried to sell my wife some pretty thick BS stories about what she needs done on her car before, that I actually went up there myself and ripped them a new one and spoke to their GM about their dishonesty.
Mechs and techs are in a profession that is similar to the medical profession... People go to them because they need help and have little understanding of what is wrong. That leads to a lot of mechanics taking advantage of people, because most of the time, they can get away with it.
This kind of BS was pushed on me at the first dealership I worked at.
I'm very diligent about thoroughly inspecting a vehicle when it comes in the shop, as I like to make the customer aware of any maintenance needs and services that are due on their vehicles. There's plenty of legitimate maintenance items lacking on vehicles out there that there's no excuse for dishonesty.
I've seen it all the time. A customer comes in from another shop/dealership saying they've recommend x work, brakes for example, when the pads are 6mm, the rotors are perfect, and there's no customer complaint of a noise or pulsation. They just wanted an easy gravy job for that day. Stuff like that pisses me off to no end.
I learned never to go to these $19.98 oil change places and so I have a regular mechanic that really great. I also don't believe that the dealer always is on the up and up and always knows the problem. They can also be incompetent and or shady.
Don't ever think that, because it's absolutely not true.
Dealerships are the worst for shotgun diagnoses either by parts changer techs or know it all service writers playing google tech over the phone. There's plenty of sharp guys out there in dealers as well, but the politics and "quick lube" mentality that most have taken on has really killed their service.
This has been my experience as well. On our local Nextdoor site people are always asking about where to get their car repaired “where it won’t cost me an arm and a leg”. No one likes to spend more then what is a reasonable price for a repair job, but if you shop around to find the lowest price you will find out that the lowest price often ends up costing far more in the long run.
I have a VW EOS, which as German cars go is a pretty technical little car. I take it to a shop that specializes in European cars instead of the local dealership because the techs there are all 1st class VW/Audi/BMW techs who also receive a lot of training every year. I know all that because I actually asked the techs before I let them work on my car the 1st time. I’ll pay more to get more every time.
Yup.
People want the quick, easy cheap fix that ends up costing them more time, money and headaches in the long run.
"Hey Jimmy, my radiator started leaking so I put some RTV on it and it kinda worked for awhile but now it's leaking again and my cars overheating and blowing coolant out, can you look at it for me?"
A simple problem like a leaking radiator has lead to a blown head gasket/cracked or warped head because the customer wanted to save a buck, and now it's ended up costing them "an arm and a leg".
I swear people are so cheap in the worst ways! I understand wanting to save money but people really can't understand when spending a little money up front will SAVE them in the long run?
Hey!! My friend does mechanic work on the side. He is honest,certified,and always guarantees his work. I find your post inaccurate. Got all my brakes and calipers replaced I bought the pads..rotors and calipers. He charged $60 in labor. He knows what he is doing. So pardon if some of us frugal minded have the gumption to entrust a knowledged person who isn't out to BS the consumer with the 40% up charge on parts and the ludicrous use of a fictions labor rate.
Listen, anyone who'll do pads, rotors and calipers all around for $60 is both a) giving you a friend price and b) doesn't have the overhead of a real shop. Some guy working "under the table" out of his garage is both putting his axx on the line legally speaking, but is also selling himself short and undercutting legitimate businesses.
Secondly, yes, shops don't charge by the hour they charge BY THE JOB REGARDLESS OF THE TIME IT TAKES. That's no different than a dentist, a contractor, a plumber, etc. For example, when you go to the dentist, they charge X amount for a cleaning, x amount for a filling, etc. Same goes with auto repair.
The shop labor rate is x amount (we'll say $75 an hour), the book time on a front brake job with rotors and calipers is 1.9 hours labor time on a 2002 Chevy Trailblazer That was calculated as follows:
The labor time is also the same for the rear pad, rotor and caliper replacement.
So by that token the example shop will charge $285 labor for THE COMPLETED WORK, not including parts. It doesn't matter whether a rotor is stuck on and they have to spend 20 minutes hammering it off, if a bolt rounds off and doesn't want to come out, etc. and it takes them MORE time, nor are they penalized for getting it done quicker, the customer pays the same amount for services rendered REGARDLESS OF THE TIME IT TAKES TO COMPLETE THEM.
No different than when a contractor bids a job, say rebuilding a deck. They calculate the materials and billable labor hours needed to complete the job and give you a set price for the completed work.
If mechanics charged by the actual time it takes, it would BENEFIT them to work slower and be a DETRIMENT to the customer. They would just work slowly and milk the time from the customer.
Flat rate (charging by the job a.k.a. bidding) has its drawbacks as well, but it's beneficial to both the customer and the mechanic/shop because it gives them a GUIDE of what to charge and the customer an expectation of what the job will cost. But it's only a guide, the book doesn't account for rust, broken bolts improperly done previous repairs, etc., so sometimes it's necessary to charge extra to deal with those things.
For example, the flat rate book for the example car specs that the time to replace each brake hose is 0.1 hours, so if one of the hoses breaks while you're replacing one of the calipers, the customer is then charged the extra labor time and for the part. AND THAT'S FAIR. More work being done equals more labor being charged.
I've had so many people that when I replaced the brake pads on their vehicle and discovered a bad outer tie rod, for example, and ending up doing that extra work, with the customer thinking that because I was "already in there" that I should've just done the extra work for free. As if my time isn't worth anything. That's why anytime I discover something like that I inform the customer and let them know it'll be X amount extra if they wish to complete the additional work.
Nov3 wrote.... "No working mechanic is reeling in 60/$75$ per hour. Unless they are hired by nascar.
I'd put my mechanic up against any of these dealer mech or shops. He is so much better then that."
There is a difference between the MECHANIC earning $60-$75 an hour and the SHOP earning that. But because you're going to some shade tree, back yard mechanic who works alone and who'll do it for peanuts you can't see the difference.
How much does an electrician charge per hour in your area? How about a plumber? HVAC tech? Contractor? You'll find that their labor rate per hour is quite in line with most shops, yet us mechanics are crooks because we demand a fair market price for our services?
You’re right. You’re a sitting duck. But you can do something s9 you’re not a sitting duck. You can educate yourself.
The best thing I can tell people is to simply learn how the various systems of a vehicle work. Most are very s8milar as far as how a system works and the knowledge is general. A braking system has the basic working structure regardless if it’s in a Ferrari or a Fiesta. This knowledge simply gives you a understanding of what is wrong so when you go in to have a service or some work and they try and sell you the “you need everything serviced” line of bs you can call them out.
Look at the shop. Is it filthy with the same cars out front? I read a story where a guy had cars out front to look busy. Watch the mechanic. Tell them you want your old parts back. Have them show you the new part. Rarely is the new part not visible. Even if it’s not visible the area they worked on should be clean and free of dirt. There should be some indication/look like it was worked on. Go online and look at the parts they supposedly will replace. Look at the old part. Do they look the same? None of this requires you to be a mechanic. The information is out there.
When I take a car in mechanics don’t bs me because I can speak their language and I have no issue calling out bs.
He gave you the freind discount. If he charged you $100, you'd still be getting a great deal. Nothing wrong with being frugal and finding a great deal though. I will say, although dealerships and repair shops often overcharge, people often try to underpay someone doing mechanic work on the side. It's downright insulting sometimes. You spending $200 on a part has nothing to do with the cost my labor and time.
Yes, yes, YES!
The ones that I love are the guys (or girls) that ask you to do something to their vehicles on the side. So you quote them a price and you get the old "Well, I've got a buddy that'll do it for X (cheaper than you)."
This "buddy" doesn't really exist, they're just trying to get you to do it cheaper than the price you've given them. I call their bluff and say "Well, take it to your buddy then. It's kinda weird that you're asking me when you've already asked your buddy to do it, do you not trust them?" or something to that effect. Doesn't always get me the job but it shuts them up
I've figured out what my time and effort is worth to make it profitable for me to do the job, if you don't like the price, shop around. Just a warning that if you put price above all else you'll likely be disappointed.
If I learned how to do a 30 minute job in 10 minutes, because I've been doing it for 20 years, you're paying for my experience, not my time.
That, in a nutshell is what separates good technicians from hack chain stores trying to upsell you unnecessary BS.
The old saying is true, you get what you pay for.
There's an old story I remember reading somewhere on the internet awhile back and it summed up this notion perfectly.
I can't find it now, but I'll paraphrase:
A customer brought their vehicle to a mechanic complaining that their vehicle made a rattling noise going down the road. So after road testing the vehicle to verify the complaint the tech puts the vehicle up on the lift to find the source of the noise.
After a short inspection they discover that one of the heat shield bolts had fallen out and it was vibrating on the exhaust, so he grabbed a bolt from the bin and installed it, fixing the problem.
The mechanic said "That'll be $50" and the customer looked at them outraged and said "That's outrageous, it only took you 10 minutes and it was only a bolt, I want a bill for this.
So the mechanic wrote him up a repair order as follows:
For the record though, I can offer you one piece of advice if you want to find an honest and trustworthy garage/mechanic:
STAY AWAY FROM SHOPS THAT PAY THEIR TECHNICIANS ON FLAT RATE.
If you find a small independent garage that pays their mechanics on an hourly, salary or combination hourly+commission, you can probably trust them. The flat rate system of pay is singlehandedly why mechanics are looked down upon as ripoff artists, because in a sense, that's what the system forces them to become. When you work on 100% commission, your entire life is feast or famine. One week you're rolling in it, next week you're starving with less than 25 hours booked and it's already the end of the pay period. It forces what would be good technicians, to become corner cutting hacks that are always trying to beat book time, and makes them more likely to upsell unneeded things (like power steering flushes, I mean come the F on, seriously?) just to make sure they have a paycheck that week.
When you find a shop that focuses on quality over quantity, stick with it. They're hard to find, but they're out there.
I've addressed the flat rate issue before (have a whole tread about it if you're interested) and I'll not rehash it hear but I'll just say that if shops had to guarantee their techs 30 hours a week on flat rate it would weed out a lot of the "feast or famine" aspects. Too many shops want to have a flat rate tech in every bay regardless of the workload because it doesn't cost them anything if they aren't producing.
P.S. Fluid flushes are a legitimate maintenance item. Just like engine oil, power steering fluid, brake fluid, transmission fluid, diff oil, etc. all gets dirty or absorbs moisture and should be changed at regular intervals. There's moisture testers for brake fluid to tell when it needs flushed, and most other fluids can be changed at manufacturer specified intervals. When there isn't one (such as for power steering fluid), I generally do it every 30k or so. Just suck the reservoir out with a turkey baster, fill it with fresh fluid, and drive for a couple days. Repeat until the fluid coming out is just as clean as what you're putting in.'
Brake fluid flushes are easy to do at home too if you're mechanically inclined at all and have the interest. Just buy a separate turkey baster (do not use the one used with oil!) and suck out the master cylinder. Fill it with fresh brake fluid and go to the furthest caliper/wheel cylinder from the master cylinder (usually the right rear) and bleed from there.
I like to make a "one man brake bleeding tool" from an old pop bottle and a clear rubber hose. Drill out the top of the bottle enough to fit the hose down inside to the bottom and fill with brake fluid to keep it submerged. Put the other end of the hose on the bleeder screw for whatever side you're bleeding, crack the bleeder, and push the brake pedal until clear fluid comes out. Repeat for each wheel and it's done.
And no, please don't take the old fluid and save it for reuse. I can't stand people who do that, they'll say it's "Still good" or "I'd use it in a pinch." Would you drink your own pxxx too? Just because it's been used doesn't mean it's not good, right??
Last edited by jimmy12345678; 03-17-2019 at 04:28 AM..
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