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"If it is so good, why don't the OEMs install it on their new vehicles?" How long did it take for U.S. OEMs to install radial tires and disc brakes? how long did some OEMs resist hydraulic brakes? The V8 engine dates back to 1916. How long did the OEMs use the straight 8? The OHV engine dates even farther back. How long did some OEMs make L head engines? That doens't seem to be a very valid argument, does it?
They also didn't face enormous public and political pressure not to mention millions and millions of dollars in CAFE violation fines for not using OHV engines. The impetus for implementing fuel-saving techonology is a little more urgent than the need to move from drum brakes to disc brakes.
In the last 30 years car companies have spent literally billions and billions and billions of dollars working on technologies to improve fuel economy. They still spend millions in engineering resources trying to squeeze an extra couple of percentage points worth of fuel economy out of their driveline systems. Lighter alloys. Improved fuel atomization. Reduced reciprocating mass. Tighter tolerances allowing thinner motor oils. Increased compression ratios without a corresponding increased risk of detonation. Development of lower rolling-resistance tires. Increased aerodynamic efficiency. Hybrid drivetrains. They've done all of these things and more in the pursuit of better fuel economy. So I don't think it's a stretch to wonder why, if they're willing to spend that kind of time and resources to increase fuel economy by small increments, none has ever apparently considered installing HHO systems if they're such a magic bullet.
OK...lets get away from the science types explaining why it can't work...lets shift the burden of prrof to the folks that claim it really does work....I've not seen this before
Your move.
Obviously you and many others haven't been reading this entire thread. There are links to what you have asked for !
The internal combustion engine is hardly anywhere near efficient and is where the additive HHO comes into play. Ever hear of a catalytic converter ??? This devise converts the UNBURNED WAISTED fuel coming out of the cylinder after it has fired into non polluting elements. That unburned and waisted fuel is what the HHO is essentially dealing with directly WITHIN the cylinder creating more energy from what would otherwise be thrown away out the exhaust making it more efficient and to use less gasoline to sum it up. This is what the average Joe doesn't realize or understand.
By adding H2 and O2 to the fuel mix entering the engine, when the cylinder fires, H2 and O2 burn at an enormous rate faster than the gasoline does causing a much more efficient burn of LESS gasoline for the same result as would otherwise be used under normal circumstances.
The next thing that nobody understand too is the key to positive results with HHO in a vehicle. It's the little thing called the exhaust O2 Sensor. This device is responsable for poor results. The cars computer is expecting a certain reading from the sensor for the exhaust fumes. When HHO is introduced causing a more clean efficient burn, the computer sees from the cleaner O2 sensor reading that there is not enough fuel being burnt so it tells the system to inject MORE gasoline into the cylenters until it gets the reading it expects. This is why they end up bburning MORE gas than before ! To get true and positive results from an HHO system, the O2 Sensor HAS to be dealt with in the appropriate manner or you CAN NEVER get positive results.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferretkona
Myth Busters had their episode on the devises for sale and every single one of them caused a decrease in mileage.
Ahhhh, Mythbusters has sponsors. They play a key roll in how and what myths they "bust" and don't !!! It's all about money... And they didn't deal with the O2 Sensor either !
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover
They also didn't face enormous public and political pressure not to mention millions and millions of dollars in CAFE violation fines for not using OHV engines. The impetus for implementing fuel-saving techonology is a little more urgent than the need to move from drum brakes to disc brakes.
Lets keep one word in mind... the word BUSINESS. If any of the Auto makers were to manufacture what is already being made in peoples garages everywhere and lay the true groundwork worldwide for a manufactured HHO device, they would end up with nothing as
1) it would be able to be very easily duplicated in ones garage and implemented on every existing vehicle. No one would have the need to upgrade to a new vehicle AND they wouldn't benefit financially from it. Sort of like a light bulb company building a bulb that burns forever ! Sort of shooting themselves in the foot ya think ?!
2) Once the world auto industry introduces this, every garage HHO system (that produces suffient HHO as there are many that just don't) will have instant creditability everywhere ! Something that has been suppressed for a very long time.
The problem they are having is manufacture something that CAN'T be made in the every day garages or easily reproduced elsewhere. It will have to be integrated into the engine, somehow intertwined with other devices. This is the only way they will be able to control and make money with it. Even then they will give instant credability to the whole idea and loose money to 3rd party competition.
What? That makes exactly zero sense. Why would anyone need to manufacture them in their garage if cars already came equipped with them? Why would the car manufacturers give a flying f^#* if the HHO method was given instant credibility if it meant they had an easy way to boost their fleet average fuel economy? A major car company spends more money in 10 minutes proving or disproving the credibility of concepts than you'll make over the course of your lifetime. Their job is to prove concepts credible so they can implement them into their product designs. They don't stand to gain a single thing by "suppressing the credibility" of HHO systems or whatever the hell conspiracy nonsense you think they're doing. But they do stand to make huge strides in their fleet average fuel economies IF HHO systems were as credible as you seem to think they are.
FWIW a fellow on one of car forums I visit put an HHO system on his car, gave about 20% more MPG, he certainly wasn't selling anything didn't even mention where he got it. From my understanding it takes the unused alternator power and splits hydrogen off of the water, and adds that into the intake, effectively giving the car more power. Obviously if you don't need the power that translates into less gasoline to move the car at a given speed.
In regards to the car manufacturers not installing it, my guess would be it requires way too much maintenance when used every day. Also I believe hydrogen burns at a high temperature, I don't believe there are any long term tests done to determine wear and tear on engine components.
,,,From my understanding it takes the unused alternator power and splits hydrogen off of the water,,
Alternators never have unused power, all power made will create more load on the engine. A heavy load dumped on a alternator will feel like the AC kicking in, the car loses power. You will even lose a small bit of mileage driving at night lighting the headlights.
Also, as far as un-burnt fuel in the exhaust. Cars entering the 80's lost mileage when it was found burning the fuel package completely created more smog. Hence the catalytic converter. A measure of un-burnt fuel is necessary for it to work efficiently.
The object many lose sight of is clean air. It is only recently with advanced computers in cars that more power and higher mileage can work with clean air.
Alternators never have unused power, all power made will create more load on the engine. A heavy load dumped on a alternator will feel like the AC kicking in, the car loses power. You will even lose a small bit of mileage driving at night lighting the headlights.
Yes I understand that. The fact that you can split Hydrogen off of water with a 9v battery though shows that there is very little power involved, and apparently the extra power required to do that is more than made up for by the energy released in the hydrogen gas. Like I said I've never tried it, nor have you, so we really can't say either way. But I am certainly intrigued.
Alternators never have unused power, all power made will create more load on the engine. A heavy load dumped on a alternator will feel like the AC kicking in, the car loses power. You will even lose a small bit of mileage driving at night lighting the headlights.
Here is where credibility starts to suffer. It has been stated REPEATEDLY that "daytime running lights" do NOT increase the alternator load on the engine, and do NOT have ANY effect on power or fuel economy.
You can't have it both ways!
As for HHO, I simply don't know. I don't know if it does work, and I don't know if it doesn't work. Therefore, I am not about to say it is impossible. I just refuse to be that closed-minded.
DRLs do increase the load on the alternator (there's no way they can't) and probably do have some effect on fuel economy, albeit a negligible effect.
As for HHOs, I've seen two reputable tests, as in, not conducted by people trying to sell these stupid things or who are carrying forth with some "the car companies are suppressing this technoogy!" conspiracy crap. The first had no measurable effect. The second reported an increase of 1.5mpg, which is well within the normal range of variations caused by any number of variables present on any given day. Bottom line: they're the the automotive equivalent of those stupid weight loss pills and dietary supplements peddled on talk radio. They're snake oil for your engine bay.
Not sure how the system is hooked up to the Alternator.
A car runs on a 12V battery with the Alternator putting out a Max of 14-1/2 volts with a built in regulator Going over that will cause the battery to BOIL. I'm puzzed about the whole system actually working to increase gas mileage.
Drover may have something there and not realize it, Steve. It might be the snake oil thrown off when "unused" electricity from the alternator mixes with the air in the wheel base that causes a hydrogen atom to crack and that eventually leads to the fuel mileage soaring a whopping 1.5 %. Could be.
Cheers
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