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Old 01-02-2015, 03:00 PM
 
Location: Chicago
38,690 posts, read 89,252,619 times
Reputation: 29451

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tofur View Post
Its the principle of it. Enthusiasts tend to buy things like gt3's, and they tend to like manuals. Porsche pissed off a lot of them.
If Porsche caved to the whiners every time they contemplated changing something, they'd still be making 964s (and nothing but) and stilll be perpetually on the verge of bankruptcy. The people who are pissed that the GT3 doesn't have a conventional manual on the grounds of "principle" simply don't understand the purpose of the GT3. And even with no manual available, Porsche will still sell every single GT3 they make long before the production run is finished, at a higher price point than ever before.

The idea that enthusiasts generally prefer conventional manuals simply has not been the case for high-end performance vehicles where the take rate for manumatics has outnumbered that for conventional manuals to such an extent that you can't even buy a new Ferrari or Lamborghini with a manual because it's no longer worth their while to offer one. Not every Porsche occupies the same rarefied air as Ferrari and Lamborghini, but the GT3 certainly does. And notwithstanding the "pissed-off" enthusiasts, the PDK is the logical choice for the GT3's mission.
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Old 01-02-2015, 03:37 PM
 
2,181 posts, read 2,141,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
If Porsche caved to the whiners every time they contemplated changing something, they'd still be making 964s (and nothing but) and stilll be perpetually on the verge of bankruptcy. The people who are pissed that the GT3 doesn't have a conventional manual on the grounds of "principle" simply don't understand the purpose of the GT3. And even with no manual available, Porsche will still sell every single GT3 they make long before the production run is finished, at a higher price point than ever before.

The idea that enthusiasts generally prefer conventional manuals simply has not been the case for high-end performance vehicles where the take rate for manumatics has outnumbered that for conventional manuals to such an extent that you can't even buy a new Ferrari or Lamborghini with a manual because it's no longer worth their while to offer one. Not every Porsche occupies the same rarefied air as Ferrari and Lamborghini, but the GT3 certainly does. And notwithstanding the "pissed-off" enthusiasts, the PDK is the logical choice for the GT3's mission.
Dude... The only reason you can't buy a ferrari or lambo with a manual is because they DONT OFFER IT. I guarantee you at least 30% of buyers would choose a manual. Like I stated before, the GTI is still 50% manual tranny despite having the DSG box available (which is the same as the PDK). And that's a GTI. I'd imagine the new stingray is majority manual as well. Lots of people who enjoy driving also enjoy a manual transmission. That will never change. Grabbing a pair of paddles is just not the same.

This isn't speculation, the porsche enthusiast community was and is really pissed about the gt3 not being available with a manual. Porsche's options lists' are huge, the fact that they offer so much customization yet no manual is a slap in the face to people who prefer it and are about to drop 130 grand on a car. They took away the choice from the buyer.
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Old 01-02-2015, 04:29 PM
 
Location: Itinerant
6,273 posts, read 4,181,029 times
Reputation: 4759
Quote:
Originally Posted by tofur View Post
Dude... The only reason you can't buy a ferrari or lambo with a manual is because they DONT OFFER IT.
It might be wise to consider why they do not offer it. Ferrari in particular are the epitome of a performance drivers car (although they have softened somewhat). Are they not offering it because perhaps what they are offering provides the drivers of Ferrari the same or better benefits as an H-Pattern and manual clutch?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tofur View Post
I guarantee you at least 30% of buyers would choose a manual. Like I stated before, the GTI is still 50% manual tranny despite having the DSG box available (which is the same as the PDK). And that's a GTI. I'd imagine the new stingray is majority manual as well. Lots of people who enjoy driving also enjoy a manual transmission. That will never change. Grabbing a pair of paddles is just not the same.
Says you, I've driven H-Patterns, doglegs, sequentials, and DCT's, in all honesty while there's a lot of nostalgia for an specific gear selector (H or Dogleg), there's no benefit over the others. I'll be honest, H Pattern is the slowest gear change mechanism there is, as a driver I want the gear I want when I want it which is right damn now (or as close to right damn now as I can get) that is not an H pattern. If I want to bimble along and enjoy the scenery then sure running through an H is fun, but not when I'm really driving. I don't drive performance cars to enjoy the scenery. Driving a DCT in manual you are driving a manual, driving the PDK in manual, you are driving a manual, so it's got the ability to be automatic too, why is that a bad thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tofur View Post
This isn't speculation, the porsche enthusiast community was and is really pissed about the gt3 not being available with a manual. Porsche's options lists' are huge, the fact that they offer so much customization yet no manual is a slap in the face to people who prefer it and are about to drop 130 grand on a car. They took away the choice from the buyer.
Porsche are still selling the GT3 faster than they can make them. Are these people upset that in 5 years they won't be able to pick up a used GT3 with a manual? Are they upset that the dream car they will never own isn't available in a manual, or are these the people who are paying for them (which is not apparent, given Porsche selling them off faster than they can make). If you're dropping 130k on a car, I'm pretty sure you can pay $10k to install a new manual H and clutch in it if you're really an enthusiast (go for a non-synchro straight cut if you're a complete enthusiast) and want everything about that car but the transmission, if you're not an enthusiast, well go find something equivalent with a manual tranny.
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Old 01-02-2015, 05:18 PM
 
Location: Chicago
38,690 posts, read 89,252,619 times
Reputation: 29451
Quote:
Originally Posted by tofur View Post
Dude... The only reason you can't buy a ferrari or lambo with a manual is because they DONT OFFER IT.
You clearly missed the point as to why that is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tofur View Post
I guarantee you at least 30% of buyers would choose a manual.
I wouldn't put too much on that guarantee if I were you. I don't know the figure for Lamborghini, but Ferrari said they stopped offering manuals because the take rate had dropped to roughly 10%.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tofur View Post
Like I stated before, the GTI is still 50% manual tranny despite having the DSG box available (which is the same as the PDK). And that's a GTI. I'd imagine the new stingray is majority manual as well. Lots of people who enjoy driving also enjoy a manual transmission. That will never change. Grabbing a pair of paddles is just not the same.
You say "that will never change" when it fact it has changed. It wasn't that long ago when a manual was the only option for the GTI. And now the take rate is only half. The GTI and the Stingray may still offer a manual for a long time... but neither are high-end performance cars and they serve different purposes than the GT3.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tofur View Post
This isn't speculation, the porsche enthusiast community was and is really pissed about the gt3 not being available with a manual. Porsche's options lists' are huge, the fact that they offer so much customization yet no manual is a slap in the face to people who prefer it and are about to drop 130 grand on a car. They took away the choice from the buyer.
No, a vocal portion of the Porsche enthusiast community is really pissed about the GT3. But those who are actually willing to pony up 200 grand for one are still lining up to buy them. If it's a slap in the face to those who prefer a GT3 with a manual, well that's too damn bad. Like I said, those people don't understand the purpose of a GT3. It's supposed to be a street-legal showcase for their racing technology. A manual transmission doesn't fit that mission any more. If the whiners just have to have a manual, they can still get one in just about every other iteration of the 911 right on up to the GTS.
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Old 01-02-2015, 05:51 PM
 
Location: Shady Drifter
2,444 posts, read 1,893,588 times
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The new Stingray can't even hit 50% manual transmissions, and that's without offering a true performance automatic.

2014 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray Buyers Love Manual Transmission, Z51 Performance Package | Edmunds.com

GM expects that to be the highest it will get, and to steadily decline:

Two out of five Corvette Stingray owners going manual


Lamborghini and Ferrari quit offering manuals because no one was buying them, as the flappy paddles are superior.
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Old 01-02-2015, 06:15 PM
 
Location: Wappingers Falls, NY
1,586 posts, read 1,952,711 times
Reputation: 1060
Oh I just love these transmission debate threads! Really gets the blood going!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffdano View Post
I think the durability of CVTs is still unproven. I also think they are not used in any high performance vehicles (yet).

The driving experience of many autos with an up/down option is borderline silly, especially downshifting. They still are automatics first.

I still enjoy manuals, but not in all vehicles. Towing a boat is not fun with a clutch.

All three of my kids know how to drive a stick. One drives one every day.
I'd call the Subaru WRX and Forester XTs as "performance vehicles." The Nissan Juke may arguably be as well, though I'd limit that to the NISMO versions. But the point is that there's no reason a CVT can't be kitted out as a performance transmission. The reason most aren't is because the most popular vehicles out there are the Toyota Blahry, the Honda Borecord, and the like. So most CVTs out there tend to be blah and boring. And why Ford tried to make a DCT shift nice and bland and boring on their cars. And why a Mazda automatic feels more like a DCT than Ford's DCT. it's all in how you tune the transmission, not about what transmission type it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
I've driven H-Patterns, doglegs, sequentials, and DCT's, in all honesty while there's a lot of nostalgia for an specific gear selector (H or Dogleg), there's no benefit over the others. I'll be honest, H Pattern is the slowest gear change mechanism there is, as a driver I want the gear I want when I want it which is right damn now (or as close to right damn now as I can get) that is not an H pattern. If I want to bimble along and enjoy the scenery then sure running through an H is fun, but not when I'm really driving. I don't drive performance cars to enjoy the scenery. Driving a DCT in manual you are driving a manual, driving the PDK in manual, you are driving a manual, so it's got the ability to be automatic too, why is that a bad thing?
There are people out there that are offended for some reason that a transmission might be able to shift for itself when not in manual mode. There are those that are offended by the absence of a clutch pedal. There are those that are offended merely by the fact that a non-manual transmission might be OPTIONAL for a particular car.

These people need to get a life and get over themselves. Put it into manual mode, install a dummy clutch pedal if you must, and go on with life.
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Old 01-02-2015, 08:48 PM
 
Location: Western Nebraskansas
2,707 posts, read 5,361,793 times
Reputation: 2415
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeagleEagleDFW View Post
But there isn't enough interest.
And yet clearly, as indicated by this thread, that is NOT the case...
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Old 01-02-2015, 09:36 PM
 
1,871 posts, read 1,668,914 times
Reputation: 2865
I am in the camp of Pro Stick Shift groups. My truck is a five speed manual. When I eventually have to replace it I want another manual. Wish Ford would bring the Global Ranger to the US. I may have to go with Toyota or Nissan for a manual transmission truck in the future. Ford come out with a replacement for the Ranger that was a a great truck.
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Old 01-02-2015, 10:07 PM
 
Location: Shady Drifter
2,444 posts, read 1,893,588 times
Reputation: 4093
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsMeFred View Post
And yet clearly, as indicated by this thread, that is NOT the case...

I'll notify Ferrari and Porsche that their multi-billion dollar business plans are wrong because of some yahoos on a message board.

They are in business to make money. All car makers are. If there was money to be made in offering manual transmissions, they would. But when over 60% of Corvette buyers (who are about as manual-oriented as it gets, to go along with their beards and baseball hats) don't opt for the manual, then there is clearly not enough interest.
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Old 01-03-2015, 04:26 AM
 
Location: Funkotron, MA
1,203 posts, read 3,104,054 times
Reputation: 1798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
Says you, I've driven H-Patterns, doglegs, sequentials, and DCT's, in all honesty while there's a lot of nostalgia for an specific gear selector (H or Dogleg), there's no benefit over the others. I'll be honest, H Pattern is the slowest gear change mechanism there is, as a driver I want the gear I want when I want it which is right damn now (or as close to right damn now as I can get) that is not an H pattern. If I want to bimble along and enjoy the scenery then sure running through an H is fun, but not when I'm really driving. I don't drive performance cars to enjoy the scenery. Driving a DCT in manual you are driving a manual, driving the PDK in manual, you are driving a manual, so it's got the ability to be automatic too, why is that a bad thing?
The bottom line is that it's not 100% about performance. Even if you're doing spirited driving or on a track, it's just more fun - for some people. I'd be fine giving up the few tenths of a second advantage the automated manuals have if it means nailing a perfectly timed heel-toe downshift just before entering a corner.

Very few people are driving their cars (including super cars) at 100% capacity on public roads. So having the option is always nice.
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