my most hated automotive trend (luxury car, Japanese, Audi, driver)

[sailordave]

Ford stopped selling the Crown Victoria except for fleet sales (like police cars) either this year or last year. They still sell the Mercury and Lincoln version of those cars for now. Many police departments like the Crown Vic because it has enough room for all their electronics and it's cheap to buy and maintain but better options are available now. If the Falcon came here now as is then it's closest competition within Ford is the Fusion which is based on the Mazda 6. Main difference is one is front wheel drive and the other is rear wheel drive. Believe me, there are American auto fans who, thanks to the internet, would love to see some foreign made cars brought here including the Falcon.

[Linson]

[quote=aussiehero123;6073525]

Linson, I suggest you learn your facts

. first of all, dont be that way.

You say you can't wait for the high performance 2 door purpose built Camaro, but you hate the boring, 4 door, lazy arse G8... It seems that you aren't aware that they are actually the same car with a different skin! The Pontiac G8 is just a Holden VE Commodore with a new hood (I agree the rams look a little stupid, but hey Americans asked for them. We get normal hoods here) and the Camaro has all the same internals with fresh bodywork.

okay, it was my understanding that the 5th Gen Camaro was built on the same platform as the Cadilac CTS - the Zeta platform, if i'm not mistaken. if that is also the same platform as the G8 and or GTO, i was not aware, mainly because i would not have looked into it since i dont like the car. you say that what i want them to build and what they are offering is similar under the skin. that may be true. my whole point being that the skin is important. that is where GM has consistantly come up short since 2003 outside of the Corvette.

But the more surprising thing is that you don't seem to recognise that car companies have been doing this the whole time. The original Dodge Charger may have had that huge 7 litre V8, but it still had regular sedan suspension, steering and brakes. Sure it was fast in a straight line - anything this side of a truck willl be with an engine that big - but it was completely random when it came to anything else. The Ford Mustang was the same; It was basically a Ford Falcon with new sheet metal. They were great to look at, but performed no better than the 4 doors they were based on.

of course i recognize the origin of muscle cars. i dont know why you would presume that the facts you have laid forth escape me. my point is, that in 1969, you had the awesome looking Charger as well as the Polara or whatever land barge it was based on. in 65 you had the sexy Ford Mustang as well as the hum drum Falcon. today, GM makes the 50K+ Corvette, which is nice, but more of a semi-exotic sports car. outside of that, the performance offerings are boring, boxy looking sedans. the Ford Mustang is the only thing left that is recognizable as purpose-built performance car that is not necessarilly a stutus symbol.

Perhaps I am on my own - being an Aussie - but I actually like 4 door performance cars. Americans seem to prefer 2 doors. But they are all sports sedans and are designed to be domestic enough for everyday use yet hot enough to make a weekend drive exciting. If you don't like that, then go for a sports coupe like a Corvette and leave muscle cars to the people who enjoy them

you are correct. in America, sedans are not considerred sporty. and most true American car enthusiasts are less than appreciative of the Australian car designs being re-badged and sold as American muscle sedans. not to **** on what you guys like down there, it's just that we have this whole muscle car history and many of us expect aggressive styling and a vehicle that is dedicated to performance, not multi-role cars, that can fit the whole family yet also do 0-60 in some 6 seconds but look basically like the rest of [GM's] bland line-up.

[aussiehero123]

Okay so we seem to place different emphasis on what makes a great car. You seem more into the looks while I'm more into actual performance. I get the looks angle - believe me, I'm the biggest Lamborghini fan I know but I wouldn't buy a pre-Audi era model because the engineering underneath the skin is poor. I certainly appreciate the original Charger for its striking looks but everything else about it bar the engine is just pathetic.

I don't think a car automatically looks boring simply because it has 4 doors. Look up pictures of the HSV GTS with its agro wheels and body kit. You'd probably find the FPV GT too tame, but if the HSV looks too tarted up (personally I don't like the tail lights), then how about the AMG variants of the Merc CLS, or your own home grown Chrysler 300C SRT8? They all look like bouncers; smart enough to not throw the first punch, but tough enough to knock you around when you give it the boot.

If you really want two doors then I think the main problem is that anyone who only needs two doors doesn't need a big car, given the higher petrol prices. People looking for a high performance two door go to the more compact BMW 3 series coupe, Audi S5, Nissan 350Z or similar.

most true American car enthusiasts are less than appreciative of the Australian car designs being re-badged and sold as American muscle sedans.

To reference Top Gear when they discussed the upcoming Camaro... 'You know what the Americans have done? They thought, "We need some sophistication here. We'll call the Australians!"' Funny stuff...

But I actually have a bit of a beef with most of the new muscle cars. Australia's muscle cars are fine, because they are spacious, comfortable, go like a shot dog and handle very well. Combined with fresh looks, they are marking their own era as modern muscle cars. But all the American models are going retro and cashing in on the 60s highlights with the old badges, particularly the Mustang and the Challenger. I give the Charger kudos for trying to reinvent itself, however I think they failed to capture the essence of a muscle car. The front is imposing but not dangerous and the rear end just looks lazy.

The only proper modern American muscle car today I believe is the Camaro. It's looks are classic American muscle - big body, brash exhausts, bold front end that oozes the 'bad boy' persona, but it is an original design in its own right, not some retro cashin. It's got a huge 6 litre V8 to give it urge and noise (and a huge petrol bill) and proper independent suspension for ride comfort and handling. It is a new car with a new design. Hopefully we can both agree that that will be one helluva car when it comes out.

I just hope we get it here. We invented the Zeta platform that it rides on and you even gave it to us to fine tune the suspension but GM won't confirm if we'll get to build our own or even import it.

[Linson]

Originally Posted by aussiehero123

Okay so we seem to place different emphasis on what makes a great car. You seem more into the looks while I'm more into actual performance.

no. i'm into both. i dont want the compromises for comfort and utility. if i want a performance car, i want an all-out performance car. i own more than one vehicle. i can get my grocery shopping done in a daily-driver.

[Drover]

Good for you. But for some people, owning multiple cars is not practical or feasible. And for those people there are performance sedans that can haul both ass and groceries. I don't understand what's wrong with that.

[On-da-Beach]

Originally Posted by Drover

Good for you. But for some people, owning multiple cars is not practical or feasible. And for those people there are performance sedans that can haul both ass and groceries. I don't understand what's wrong with that.

You mean zero to one hundred then back to zero in 16 seconds?

I don't see anything wrong with that either...

[Linson]

Originally Posted by Drover

Good for you. But for some people, owning multiple cars is not practical or feasible. And for those people there are performance sedans that can haul both ass and groceries. I don't understand what's wrong with that.

nothing wrong with it except for the lack of an all out performance car for under 50 G's (Corvette). it's all well and good that they're making an offering for the few who want a

sedan that can haul both ass and groceries

but GM has ignored the much larger market that wants a sports car, not a compramise. this is backed up by the fact that you see so many '05 and up Mustangs (many of them GTs), and you dont see a lot of G8s nor late model GTOs (cancelled, btw).

so, the problem is two fold. 1 - building cars and badging them with heritages that they just dont live up to in a styling sense. 2 - adding performance to cars from the existing utilitarian line up in place of a true muscle/pony car. call it what you want, a G8 is a Grand Am with an LS motor. and an ugly ram-air hood.

to me, the whole trend just seems so half-assed

i dont have a problem with it if you prefer something of a compramise between performance, comfort, space, practicality, and utility. i just think that they should offer something for the many of us who arent looking for a compramise. the fact that they do not is what makes it my most hated automotive trend.

[Drover]

If there were "the many of [you] who aren't looking for a compromise" then there would be more offerings for you than just the one. You're a niche market so be prepared to have slim pickin's.

Of course, any car below 30 grand offers compromises of its own no matter what the packaging format. If you wanna nip at the big boy's heels, you'll have to pony up for a Corvette which is the closest thing to an "affordable" compromise-free car this side of a Porsche 911.

And for the 83rd time, the G8 is not a Grand Am or even anything close to it. And they didn't just take a utilitarian car and stuff a V8 into it. The Commodore has been engineered from the ground-up for decades to accept a small-block V8.

[AllenKarber]

Originally Posted by Drover

And for the 83rd time, the G8 is not a Grand Am or even anything close to it. And they didn't just take a utilitarian car and stuff a V8 into it. The Commodore has been engineered from the ground-up for decades to accept a small-block V8.

Amen! The G8 is light years ahead of a Grand Am in every aspect,and the same goes for the GTO. the next vehicle I buy will either be a G8 or a GTO. I just wish there was a 2 door G8 coming for sure.

[Linson]

[quote=Drover;6107997]

If there were "the many of [you] who aren't looking for a compromise" then there would be more offerings for you than just the one. You're a niche market so be prepared to have slim pickin's.

that may be true, but it's a pretty big niche. i see a lot of Mustang GTs on the road these days. i still see a lot of 4th gen Camaros and Firebirds on the road. i've only seen a couple of G8s and and a handfull of GTOs on the road - ever. this is because they were concieved for the Camaro/Firebird market - and we dont like them. a much smaller niche would be people for whom these LS2 powered 4-door sedans are just what they're lookin' for.

Of course, any car below 30 grand offers compromises of its own no matter what the packaging format.

true. these are compramises that us Ponycar people are prepared to live with as we have done for decades.

If you wanna nip at the big boy's heels, you'll have to pony up for a Corvette which is the closest thing to an "affordable" compromise-free car this side of a Porsche 911.

yeah, because theyre not making anything else - hence my most hated automotive trend. actually, i do like the late model Mustang GTs.

And for the 83rd time, the G8 is not a Grand Am or even anything close to it. And they didn't just take a utilitarian car and stuff a V8 into it. The Commodore has been engineered from the ground-up for decades to accept a small-block V8.

Grand Am...Grand Prix...whatever. looks the same to me, which makes me, and most people in my niche - a rather large market judging from the success of the new Mustangs - not want to buy it. the performance numbers are actually pretty good. as i said, that's what happens when you drop an LS2 into anything. i just need a different packaging:



meanwhile, i will just stick with the cars i already have or buy a late model Mustang.

- the Mustang which competes with the Corvette, but the Corvette is not a direct competitor of the Mustang. the Camaro/Firebird are the Mustang's natural predators.