Detroit's cars are better than Japanese cars (rental, 2010, auto)

[tiresidedown]

But only if you consider mileage, safety and emissions to be really important. What? Detroit is on par or exceeding major Japanese automakers in many of the key categories. Maybe it used to be true that Detroit trailed behind the Japanese in quality, but now it seems to be a really big case of reputation lag, where popular opinion hasn't caught up with reality.

Without any examples about 'my car did this' or other single-car examples that are intended to be representative of hundreds of millions of cars - what is the real essence of the difference between Domestic, Japanese and European vehicles today?

[wheelsup]

Personally I don't think anyone can say one manufactures cars are more reliable than the others currently. We don't know till 10+ years down the line.

All new cars are reliable, I doubt there are very many failures before 100k/10 years.

[rubber_factory]

Originally Posted by tiresidedown

But only if you consider mileage, safety and emissions to be really important. What? Detroit is on par or exceeding major Japanese automakers in many of the key categories. Maybe it used to be true that Detroit trailed behind the Japanese in quality, but now it seems to be a really big case of reputation lag, where popular opinion hasn't caught up with reality.

That's an awfully bold claim that "popular opinion hasn't caught up with reality." You seem to be really confident in your ability to determine what's real and what isn't.

Without any examples about 'my car did this' or other single-car examples that are intended to be representative of hundreds of millions of cars - what is the real essence of the difference between Domestic, Japanese and European vehicles today?

Domestic automakers have legacy costs they can't escape. Those legacy costs fluctuate, and are intricately linked to the cost of U.S. healthcare, which is the most expensive in the world.

So revenue that could be used internally to develop better, more reliable products, is instead flowing out of the automakers, and into an army of lawyers, union bosses, health insurance companies, et cetera.

[Mr.Cat]

This thread should be interesting. I am just going to sit back and watch the show.

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Originally Posted by Mr.Cat

This thread should be interesting. I am just going to sit back and watch the show.

No kidding.

The originator makes a statement that cannot be backed up and is actually funny.

[Sayantsi]

Show... or bloodbath - now you are stepping on people's egos regarding what car they bought - pretty inflammatory post imo. I think the OP is quoting from a newspaper article that cited sources, but its odd that you would ask for cited sources instead of anecdotes while offering no factual data yourself.

If you really want to understand the quality of cars, JD Power is what I consider the best source for seeing what is good and bad about each model. In general, the data show that American cars exceed Japanese cars on some counts, but overall, Japanese cars are more reliable than American or European cars.

Fwiw, Toyota has 300 retired employees in the US, GM supports close to half a million.

[M3 Mitch]

What do you mean by "better"? Depends on what you want to pay, what you want the car to do, how long you'll keep it, whatever happens to the price of gas over the time you keep it, etc.

Emissions is a red herring. Essentially all EFI cars built since the mid-80s, ones that have Check Engine Lights, if the CEL is not illuminated, the car is running essentially right (not perfect, just no significant problems) - once the car is warm it puts out almost nothing. So, even if you are "200% cleaner than M3 Mitch's 87 Camry" for example, I have to say, "so what". Modern EFI cars put out something around 1% of what pre 1963 (no PCV) cars put out. Going after the last 1% of anything is essentially never cost effective. In fact the PCV valve, or PCV systems in general, are by far the best anti-smog device, not surprising since you go after the low-hanging fruit first (well, if you have as much sense as a monkey, you do..) the simple old PCV on late 60's to early 70's cars reduced unburned HC by around 33%, kept oil cleaner, had no effect on WOT performance, and made a small improvement in MPG. Not bad for a less than $10 part.

[caution]

I have access to fleet cars (all domestic small and mid sized sedans leased by the gov't.) and will admit they are coming along compared to the fleet cars of five years ago.

I'd still go to Honda or Toyota first, and I'd pick models made in Japan, not here, if possible.

IT may not be the "cars" that end up wrecking the domestic industry, it may be their labor, manufactoring process and consumer confidence level.

Just the other day I read and article that showed how Honda can turn out a new model in the same plant in one day to react to the market-- the domestics take up to 45 days to do the same. You can't fix those kids of problems quickly, assuming that article is correct. They've reduced the number of "platforms" but it may have been to late. (Example, the new Charger/Challenger beastie is a 300 in a costume with some nice suspension goodies left over from the D-C period)

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by Mr.Cat

This thread should be interesting. I am just going to sit back and watch the show.

I wish the OPs claims were true. I'm not seeing it. I drive a bunch of rental cars and get a feel for what some of these vehicles are like. A couple of cars that I was really impressed with in terms of power, handling, and even fuel efficiency were the Chevy Impala v8, the Lincoln Continental, the Mercury Gran Marquis... that's about it.

Any typical Honda Accord with a V6 can do what these V8s can do at about 30 mpg. Perhaps a Nissan Maxima or even an Altima could do the same. A Toyota Camry would probably match up well. I'd imagine all these cars still run pretty good after 150K + miles. I know the Honda Accord does. These cars are smooth, stylish, get great gas mileage, are quite, tight and handle like a race car, don't drip a drop of oil nor do they have dirty oil when you change it...

You take a lower end American car and it's a piece of kwrap. It rattles, revs really high like a Briggs and Stratton and they're doggy slow pieces of junk.

If these American cars were better, the consumer would just know, and they'd buy the over-priced pieces of junk. They don't need some consumer guide to show them what's junk and what's not.

A side by side test of a Mitsubishi and a comparable Dodge stripped of their markings will have consumers favoring the Mitsi everytime. Same with the Toyota vs Chevy or Mazda vs Ford.

I'm starting to worry if maybe the throw-away Hyandai isn't so throw away anymore and will outrun the Fords, Chevys and Chrylers.

Detroit better get their acts together; break that Union up and quit paying these lazy bums 90 bucks an hour to sit.

The American Auto Industry makes me sick and this would be a good place to gut and start over in order to get our global economy back in order.

[tiresidedown]

From the OP:


Citations Added: ( I know I said avoid anecdotes, so these are multiple models/brands, etc.)

Ford & Nissan; quality and MPG:
http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayRe...4952153&EDATE=
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...omparison_test

GM’s Chevrolet, Saturn, and Pontiac beat Toyota overall by 2MPG. Look for Ford in ’09.
http://www.automotivetraveler.com/in...305&Itemid=131

Ford has more top rated safe vehicles than any company in the US.
http://www.freep.com/article/2008112...SS01/311240002

As far as reliability, Detroit exceeds Toyota, and is comparable to Honda
http://www.egmcartech.com/2009/01/05...st/#more-29468