U.S. Auto Makers (driver, repair, Saturn, reliable)

[Ronzou]

Originally Posted by Twinkle Toes

My Lexus is made of steel. It's a foreign car, right?

Yes. It is foreign. Lexus is owned by Toyota.

[Cosmic]

Originally Posted by Angel Bear

I have a Saturn that has polymer side panels...So, even though my car is a 1995, I have very little rust

I think the U.S. auto makers need to rethink how they do everything from the materials, manufacturing, marketing, products, as well as how they manage their human resources.

I also think they should work more on alternative fuels and hybrids

And, well, they're going to have to change how they do business...Maybe form alliances...It's amazing how much things are changing here in Metro Detroit

A lot of ideas, some of them come from strange places. Like from the aircraft industry. They have been working on making a very small private jet aircraft that will be very light weight, low cost with high performance. Some designs might even be capable of defeating the sonic boom and flying supersonic over populated areas.

The ideas that it takes to make all that happen will probably find its way back into automobiles. The thing mentioned about all the copper wire, both for weight and expense, that same problem occurs in aircraft. In the private aircraft they are attempting to solve it by something like a very lightweight circuit board. Looks more like a flat ribbon but can have many circuits. The copper is plated on in micro amounts in each circuit. Same thing can happen in cars. This idea of each component can be a very highly engineered product.

You might eventually wind up with something like an almost wire body car made out of steel, foam panels, inserts, etc. Lots of things can be made out of the foam, the final car might even float in water it will be so light. The foam can be machined like metals, if you held some in your hand, might think it is a metal. Titantium can be one of the basic feedstocks in nano-spheres. Can even appear to be a type ceramic. Already used a lot in aircraft, some of the very deep diving mini-submarines, all sorts of products and lots of applications in the oil industry. One problem was if you attempt to put a cable or pipe down to a very deep depth, eventually its own weight causes it to break. They use the foam to coat the pipe / cable to balance out its own weight by generating bouyancy forces, can also take incredible pressure.

http://www.cmtmaterials.com/syntactic.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syntactic_foam

http://www.machiningmagazine.com/index2.php?sitenumber=152 (broken link)

The USA manufacturers have only one real approach to the market, advertise to change buying habits and produce some horrible vehicles in terms of performance, price and their fuel economy and effects on the environment.

Toyota is already eating their lunch and will continue to do so. I just bought a 2007 Yaris. Got like 43 MPG average on my winter trip to Florida and at times I was driving well over 80 MPH for long periods. Plus they know how to build real cars. That Yaris basically is a Mini-Cooper, Van, small SUV in concept, they took the best ideas from each and made the super small car. Got the nice ride, high seating, good handling and view, good mileage and super reliability for like $13K sitting in my drive.

The Yaris has the same displacement engine 1500 cc as my old 1993 Dodge Colt but the comparison stops there. It will probably out accelerate the big truck pigs that detroit is selling, fun to drive, with a ton of room inside the box as built. That engine with standard A/C and electric power steering still have a lot of room to work on things under the hood. Detroit does not have a clue or an answer. They are so far behind the curve. The only reason Toyota and the other foreign makers are not completely swamping them at this point is certain models are still in limited production. The Yaris is in that category, sell quick, dealers can't keep them in stock. Best selling car in Europe the last 5 years.

Every aspect, design, manufacture, marketing, reliability, performance, etc Detroit is falling further behind. Get very high gas prices and the shift in consumer mentality that must eventually come with it, Detroit is dead meat, they have no answer.

The immediate goal has to be a reasonable priced good performance, decent sized vehicle that can get 60 MPG. Toyota probably has that as a goal and might deliver on it in say 5 years. The technology is probably there to really cut the curb weight of a car. My Yaris with all the improvements still only weighs like a hundred pounds more than the old Colt. Lot more usable internal volume in the Yaris for the same approximate weight. Cut that weight a bit more and they should be at 60 MPG with this generation technology. Somewhere in there the foam components will start to should up in the designs.

[vpcats]

Plastic? Now, why don't they put all that melamine they put into the pet food into the cars instead, so the plastic can look richer and they can charge you more! :-))

OK OK

[vpcats]

I live in Florida. The idea about such lightweight cars that might even float in water, is not real appealing to me. I don't think I'd want my car hovering over my or someone else's head during a hurricane.

Can't it be just light enough to save on gas but not fly or float away?

[Cosmic]

Originally Posted by vpcats

Plastic? Now, why don't they put all that melamine they put into the pet food into the cars instead, so the plastic can look richer and they can charge you more! :-))

OK OK

Pet chow is a better market margin right now. Especially in a place like Florida, I could pay $1 a can for the cheap chow, even if it has bad stuff in it. Drive to the store in a $60K dual wheely Ford F-250 4 wheel drive getting 8 MPG for two cans of chow.

Need that massive 4.5 foot length cargo box to haul the cans home. That melamine is heavy. Not to worry I saw that truck on TV hauling them big pipes up a mountain in the rain, I know it can get my chow home on that flat level Florida sand.

[vpcats]

It's very hard to "quote" on this computer but.....

At least I get about 10 cans at a time and they ARE $1.00 each "on sale". When I hit one of those sale days, I get double the amount. I'm trying to be efficient. I am very good about that. ;-)

[Cosmic]

Originally Posted by vpcats

It's very hard to "quote" on this computer but.....

At least I get about 10 cans at a time and they ARE $1.00 each "on sale". When I hit one of those sale days, I get double the amount. I'm trying to be efficient. I am very good about that. ;-)

Dog chow in Ohio is running a whopping $0.39 a can, every day, all day for the house brand. Up from $0.33 a can, on sale I can sometimes get it for $0.25.

Duh, the chow in Ohio comes out of the same warehouse system as in Florida, much of the chow is actually grown / produced in Florida. The same strawberry(s) you pay $5 for we get the better ones from same field in Florida on sale $1.99.

I might go back to Florida this coming winter. That car is going to be loaded with chow of all types. Even with gas over $3 a gallon it would pay to go chow shopping in Ohio if you live in Florida. The home of the most expense 8 inch pumpkin pie. Yours for a mere $14. It doesn't even cost close to that in Boston.

[BudinAk]

Good replies! The only reason I mentioned U.S. automakers is that they are the ones in big trouble right now. All other things being equal, I'd rather support OUR OWN industries. The problem is, things just aren't equal, Toyota isn't #1 for being average, mediocre, and "so-so". Their vehicles are high quality and last a long time, with fewer problems. Consumers don't want an "ok", or "average" return for their dollar...they want the very best. Period.
One factor is poor mileage, (not just U.S. vehicles), and it will become increasingy, vastly, more important as gas prices climb. When gas was $1.50/gal, 15 mpg was no big deal. But, at $3/gal, it's beginning to hurt. Well...just watch what happens when gas gets to $5/gal. If U.S. made cars could improve their mileage by, say 25%, then I'm sure potential buyers would take a second look. One way to do that is to lighten the weight of the vehicle. Let's face it, modern vehicles are an extremely heavy contraption...typically thousands of pounds. Generally, these days we just don't have to worry about cars and trucks that are "too light"...they are all massive and HEAVY!. As an example: let's say you did a study, and found a way to make a Ford F-250 truck 800 pounds lighter, using some new-fangled lightweight material. That is a quite a lot, and one possible way may be to ditch the steel for something lighter. Not all the steel, just the parts that don't need to be.

And another thing: ergonomics. As an example, I really like the new Ford F-150/F-250 series. They look great. (ditto for the Dodge and Chevy) But I won't buy one. Why not? Because...I've looked at them...and they are so BLASTED high off the ground that I cannot reach into the bed to get anything, (or put anything into) the bed. I suppose if I were 6'4" tall, with lanky arms, I could. But at my 5'6" height....I cannot. This problem is getting WORSE, not better, with the latest offerings in recent years. Sorry...but I simply REFUSE to pack around a stepladder in order to use a truck! So....why don't they make a truck bed with "fold-down" sides in the bed? So us "shorties" could access stuff? Don't they ever do studies of different groups of people, to see what the problems are? (apparently not...)
(and if Toyota carries through with their plan to INCREASE the size of their Tundra (which is already about optimum)...I WON'T be buying one of those either...)
Auto manufactureres and engineers: are you listening???????? HELLO!!! Anyone home???

Bud

[South Range Family]

Originally Posted by BudinAk

Generally, these days we just don't have to worry about cars and trucks that are "too light"...they are all massive and HEAVY!. As an example: let's say you did a study, and found a way to make a Ford F-250 truck 800 pounds lighter, using some new-fangled lightweight material. That is a quite a lot, and one possible way may be to ditch the steel for something lighter. Not all the steel, just the parts that don't need to be.


Bud

If that truck was 800 pounds lighter, It would have an even harder time stopping a 19000 pound trailer. Vehicles are made for specific purposes. If people would learn those purposes, and then buy the correct vehicle for their own needs, we would all be a lot better off.

When was the last time you were under a vehicle? I was recently under my 97 Plymouth Grand Caravan. It was mostly cast aluminum and plastic parts under there. The only steel I saw was the sway bar, and axle shafts.

[BudinAk]

Quote: [When was the last time you were under a vehicle? I was recently under my 97 Plymouth Grand Caravan. It was mostly cast aluminum and plastic parts under there. The only steel I saw was the sway bar, and axle shafts.]

That would have been 4 days ago, when I changed all four tires on our Chevy Cavalier from winter studs to summer tires....I didn't see ANY plastic or aluminum under there. It's made out of mostly steel, but it's little, so the mpg is fairly decent...

Bud