Snow Belt residents: we're coming up on that time of year again: SALT! Is there a better way? (vehicles, traction)

[Drover]

OK Snow Belt car owners, we're coming up on another season of "fight the salt so it doesn't eat your car." It got me wondering: is this really necessary? Certainly there are less corrosive alternatives out there, such as calcium- or magnesium-based salt compounds, or liquid alcohol solutions. Of course to say, municipalities inevitably balk at the higher cost of these alternatives.

But is salt really cost-effective or is this a false economy? Do we, as a society, save more money by using salt than is lost to shortened service ives of our vehicles, the increased maintenance costs, the costs associated with having to wash them diligently, etc.? What about the damage to nearby ecosystems -- how to place a monetary value on this externality? What about clearing highways and major thoroughfares only and then highly recommending people get snow tires to traverse the arterial/side streets? (This may not be practical in very hilly areas.)

Would you be willing to spend a few bucks more in taxes so that your car doesn't rust out from under you over the years?

[GTOlover]

we use molasses to de-ice are roads in vancouver

According to a recent article from the Associated Press, a shortage of road salt combined with rising prices has many communities looking for new ways to extend their salt supplies or to find alternative methods to de-ice roads: "...communities are making plans to stretch supplies by mixing salt with sand, brine or even beet juice."1 Information in the CAS databases can provide insights into the latest methods in road de-icing.
Traditionally, chloride salt pellets have been used to de-ice roads due to their ability to lower the freezing temperature of water or, in the cases of calcium chloride and magnesium chloride, by creating heat via an exothermic reaction.2

Chloride salt pellets are often pre-wetted with a salt solution, or brine, to prevent the pellets from scattering off the roadway during spreading and to enhance their melting properties.2 Sand, as you may have guessed, works by providing traction - but what about "beet juice"?
The author of the AP story is likely referring to several new de-icing products that contain de-sugared sugar beet molasses, a waste product created when sugar beets are used to make commercial grade sugar. The first U.S. patent to describe the use of de-sugared sugar beet molasses as a de-icing agent was issued in 2000:

It's not clear how de-sugared sugar beet molasses works - even whether it can melt ice as effectively as chloride salts. However, the inventor claims that compared to other de-icing agents, de-sugared sugar beet molasses is more readily available at low cost, effective at temperatures below freezing, suitable for use in conventional sprayers, non-corrosive, environmentally safe, and non-offensively smelling.
A recent U.S. patent application provides additional support for the use of de-sugared sugar beet molasses as an alternative or a supplement to chloride salts for de-icing. The patent describes a process that effectively enhances the melt value of de-sugared sugar beet molasses:

[Tennesseestorm]

Seeing stuff like this make me glad that I live in the southeast.
Yeah, we get snow (and roads are occasionally salted), but only about 10-12 inches of snow per year on average... if that.

I agree that salt is bad... there should be other things considered... enviroment, cars, etc.

[ranger17]

last couple seasons up in Madison WI they were using beet juice to help stretch their supplies as the past 2 years had record snowfalls. I drove for 30+ years up there, and my personal choice would have been to salt less and sand more. There are times at intersections, ramps, etc where icing is an issue and maybe a salt base with sand over may help. But heck, there are plenty of days there when the temps are to cold for road salt to work anyhow. And as it's price rises and supplies dwindle, tougher for cities to find enough.
I look forward to our first full winter, where this wont be an issue anymore for us

[Drover]

Yeah, I cringe at the idea of salting in Madison, at least on the isthmus with the two lakes right there taking the immediate brunt of all that salt runoff.

Anyway, I've looked into the beet juice situation, and it seems to be a supplement to salt rather than a replacement. It's good that it reduces salt use by 20-30% but that's still a lot of salt being thrown on our roads. Also, beet juice does pose its own environmental issues; namely since it's organic in nature, it will eventually decompose, and the portions that get washed into watersheds will deplete oxygen as it decomposes, and that's not good for living things. I would still guess this is less damaging overall to the environment than salt.

[ranger17]

Originally Posted by Drover

Yeah, I cringe at the idea of salting in Madison, at least on the isthmus with the two lakes right there taking the immediate brunt of all that salt runoff.
.

Add that to all the ag runoff, and it's no wonder those 2 lakes ( actually the entire chain ) turn into "algae ponds" by summer... but that's for another forum...

The main problem i think i've had with all the salt ( and sand ) used past few years-- there is no way anymore to avoid your car being peppered on the front end by salt pellets kicked up on the road by other vehicles; and the sand blown around does a nice job on the windshields.
Of course the hiway crews are damned either way-- we complain about salt damage long term, but in next breath can complain about not getting thru an icy intersection.

[Redraven]

Sure, there's a better way; just go back to the way it was done in the 1950's or thereabouts: A little sand or fine gravel on hills and intersections, but other than that it is up to YOU to drive safely, giving due consideration to conditions.
We seldom used tire chains, but we had REAL snow tires impregnated with sawdust or walnut shells.
We didn't have the government closing roads, or trying to keep summer time conditions all winter on all highways.
I have to laugh everytime the out-of-staters come in during the winter and complain that every street in town isn't cleared of snow, and they just don't understand why!
1. There is no place to put the stuff, without massive expenditures of money.
2. there is not enough money to clean every street in town. They can barely afford to keep the main thouroughfares clear.
3. Those who live in town aren't willing to pay the taxes it would take to fund such an undertaking, and I don't blame them, I wouldn't either!

Just forget about the de-icing, and learn to live with winter.

[M3 Mitch]

Originally Posted by Redraven

Sure, there's a better way; just go back to the way it was done in the 1950's or thereabouts: A little sand or fine gravel on hills and intersections, but other than that it is up to YOU to drive safely, giving due consideration to conditions.
We seldom used tire chains, but we had REAL snow tires impregnated with sawdust or walnut shells.
We didn't have the government closing roads, or trying to keep summer time conditions all winter on all highways.
I have to laugh everytime the out-of-staters come in during the winter and complain that every street in town isn't cleared of snow, and they just don't understand why!
1. There is no place to put the stuff, without massive expenditures of money.
2. there is not enough money to clean every street in town. They can barely afford to keep the main thouroughfares clear.
3. Those who live in town aren't willing to pay the taxes it would take to fund such an undertaking, and I don't blame them, I wouldn't either!

Just forget about the de-icing, and learn to live with winter.

Yeah, particularly here in the West, that dry, powdery snow is just about like dust or sand. If you have a set of proper snow tires *and* a grain of sense about how to drive, you don't need snow removal. You certainly don't need salt.

Another sop to the assinine American canard that everyone, regardless of how unskilled, can and should drive...

[Drover]

Thing is, the snow here is rarely "that dry, powdery snow." And around here, clearing it off is a borderline necessity even assuming everyone is a cautious driver. The problem with not clearing it off by some means or another in areas that see anything more than modest traffic is that it will eventually get compressed into sheer ice. That's what happened on the side streets here last year when the city experimented with salting the main thoroughfares only. The side streets became nearly impassible -- even driving at idle speeds was a risky proposition, especially since most side streets are narrow and lined with parked cars on each side. That experiment lasted for exactly one snowfall. The side streets were cleared with every subsequent snowfall.

[truemuck]

Originally Posted by Drover

Thing is, the snow here is rarely "that dry, powdery snow." And around here, clearing it off is a borderline necessity even assuming everyone is a cautious driver. The problem with not clearing it off by some means or another in areas that see anything more than modest traffic is that it will eventually get compressed into sheer ice. That's what happened on the side streets here last year when the city experimented with salting the main thoroughfares only. The side streets became nearly impassible -- even driving at idle speeds was a risky proposition, especially since most side streets are narrow and lined with parked cars on each side. That experiment lasted for exactly one snowfall. The side streets were cleared with every subsequent snowfall.

EXACTLY! It doesn't matter how well the thoroughfares are plowed, if you can't get to them!

I grew up in WNY, where we get a lot of snow and use a lot of salt. Personally, until these other new methods are more tested, salt is the still the best way to go.