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Old 11-07-2009, 01:17 PM
 
Location: North Pole Alaska
886 posts, read 4,557,929 times
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Volume has nothing to do with it.

The simple fact that you can take a part from one and put it on another is great. A head, oil pan, valve covers, intake, and so on can all be used on the 265 up to the 400(steam holes required for the heads) Ford couldn't even make one engine let alone a family of engine that can make that claim.
The SBC is the best family of engines hands down. They are the standard that all others are measured against.
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Old 11-07-2009, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
10,715 posts, read 22,321,366 times
Reputation: 5137
this would be a better comparison if it were a chevy 350 Vs. ford 302 because both motors have a huge following and a massive aftermarket.

Quick observations:
SBF (289/302) Significantly lighter and physically smaller than the SBC.
SBF Thrust plated cam position. SBC cam floats, only held in place by the timing chain (hence the famous timing cover "button").
SBF fuel pump mounted on front cover. SBC fuel pump activated by funky rod in the block.
SBF easy access, front distributor. SBC hard access, rear distributor. Technically better to drive distributor/oil pump from same position where cam itself is driven (the front).
SBF symetrical intake/exhaust ports. SBC early fifties-type siamesed intake and exhaust ports.
Interchangeability:
Some say SBC has better "interchangeability", but SBFs offer more variety. Aluminum or cast iron bellhousings (small and large 289/351W/351C/5.0s), in-line or canted valve heads (289/351W/351C/5.0s can interchange), Cranks from a 400s can fit a 351Ws, cranks from a 351Cs can be made to fit 289/302s, front covers interchange between 289/351W/5.0s). How many parts interchange between SBC 350s and 348s/409s?
Other issues:
The SBF is the ONLY modern production V-8 to ever win the 24 hrs of Lemans outright. The Ford Indy engine is the ONLY modern production-based V-8 engine to win the Indy 500.
The current SBF based NASCAR engine is the only V8 in NASCAR that still has its roots directly traceable to a production engine. Chevy and Chrysler both abandoned their small block engine designs with new, pure racing designs. So, in that sense, the SBF has proven to be the longest lasting design.
The completely new chevy LS1/6 engine appears to be more a deritive of a Ford engine than the traditional SBC....Symetrical ports, 10 bolt head/block/Y-block design/cross bolted mains.

Last edited by GTOlover; 11-07-2009 at 01:42 PM..
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Old 11-07-2009, 01:47 PM
 
Location: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
10,715 posts, read 22,321,366 times
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As for Ford versus Chevy. The variety at Ford is more interesting. If things had gone slightly differently... no oil crisis, Ford was poised to really blow everyone away in the early seventies with the 385's and Clevelands. Instead, they had to make the best of the situation, which was to continue producing the more economical Windsor and turn the 385 into a truck engine. Of course, we love the Windsor engines because Ford and the after-market finally started producing really good heads and intakes in the early 90's plus the addition of fuel injection.

The Clevelands still have a lot to offer. They have stong bottom ends with big bearings and four bolt mains and some huge heads, but the modern Windsor parts are just as good.

So which is better? That depends. I would say that the Ford did a pretty good job on on the Cleveland and Windsor designs. GM is currently using a design that incorporates many of the best elements of both along with some touches from the aftermarket. Or you could say that Ford had to move on to a completely new design, the Modular to keep up. Or maybe Ford has moved ahead. It is all in how you look at things.

Sorry about the length.


1. Why has Chevy abandoned the excess # of head bolts (17) in favor of the Ford-like 10 bolt heads in their redesigned LS engine series?
2. The Ford's "thin wall" casting technique (block and heads) saved lots of excess cast iron (power robbing weight in the FRONT of the car yet still had a block with strength and rigidity equal to any GM produced SBC. As in the previous response, the SBF was the only modern American V8 strong and powerful enough to survive the grueling 24 hrs of Lemans and win it outright, multiple times.
3. I still consider the SBFs mech fuel pump setup a cleaner design and easier to maintain.
4. All SBFs had "Angle Plug" heads from the start (1962). It was a big deal for SBCs when they came out with the great "Angle Plug" heads!
5. The "external" balancing technique enabled the SBF block to be lighter, more compact, and rigid (the SBC went to external balance (ala Ford) when they went to 400 cubes).
6. As for Chevy's interchangeability and simplicity... Let's see we have the classic SBC, the 348/409, the 396/427/454, the LT5 350 (OHC), the LT1, the LS1/6, and the NASCAR SB-II. The only two that are close to each other are the classic SBC and the LT1 which are about as close as the Windsors and Clevelands. Funny thing, didn't the LT1 had the distributor in the front of the engine?

SBC and SBF have their own strengths and weakness - I just like them both. I was disappointed that Ford abandoned OHV V-8 in favor of modular SOHC/DOHC V-8. Chevys still maintain OHV V-8, their LS-1/6 proves that you don't need superchargers to get 400hp.
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Old 11-07-2009, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Earth
4,227 posts, read 20,280,133 times
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I'm going to assume you are referring to the 350 Chevy. In this case, yes it is better. Why?

The engine has stood the test of time; they've been around since 1967 (though the foundation for the block has been around since 1955)

They're relatively easy to find, parts are cheap, parts can be found anywhere (if you can't find a part for a Chevy 350 there's something wrong)

They make good hp and torque without breaking the bank

They're still in high demand...you can even get them brand new in crate engine form

You can build them into literally whatever you want....you can make a high winding 302 out of one (using a 283 crank)....or a 327....or if you want to go the other route a 383 and I've even seen where you can build a (not kidding here) a 401 cubic inch (3.80 stroke crank, 4.060 bore) out of one!!!

The engine is about what I'd consider a "universal" engine since they're used in anything and everything from trucks to station wagons to bikes to lawn tractors to muscle cars to drag cars to....is the sky the limit?

Heck you even see them used in Ford Model T buckets, 1929-34 Ford coupes and even some 1979-93 Mustangs. Maybe the Ford camp also knows how good they are....??
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Old 11-07-2009, 02:08 PM
 
Location: Earth
4,227 posts, read 20,280,133 times
Reputation: 2209
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTOlover View Post
this would be a better comparison if it were a chevy 350 Vs. ford 302 because both motors have a huge following and a massive aftermarket.

Quick observations:
SBF (289/302) Significantly lighter and physically smaller than the SBC.
SBF Thrust plated cam position. SBC cam floats, only held in place by the timing chain (hence the famous timing cover "button").
SBF fuel pump mounted on front cover. SBC fuel pump activated by funky rod in the block.
SBF easy access, front distributor. SBC hard access, rear distributor. Technically better to drive distributor/oil pump from same position where cam itself is driven (the front).
SBF symetrical intake/exhaust ports. SBC early fifties-type siamesed intake and exhaust ports.
Interchangeability:
Some say SBC has better "interchangeability", but SBFs offer more variety. Aluminum or cast iron bellhousings (small and large 289/351W/351C/5.0s), in-line or canted valve heads (289/351W/351C/5.0s can interchange), Cranks from a 400s can fit a 351Ws, cranks from a 351Cs can be made to fit 289/302s, front covers interchange between 289/351W/5.0s). How many parts interchange between SBC 350s and 348s/409s?
Other issues:
The SBF is the ONLY modern production V-8 to ever win the 24 hrs of Lemans outright. The Ford Indy engine is the ONLY modern production-based V-8 engine to win the Indy 500.
The current SBF based NASCAR engine is the only V8 in NASCAR that still has its roots directly traceable to a production engine. Chevy and Chrysler both abandoned their small block engine designs with new, pure racing designs. So, in that sense, the SBF has proven to be the longest lasting design.
The completely new chevy LS1/6 engine appears to be more a deritive of a Ford engine than the traditional SBC....Symetrical ports, 10 bolt head/block/Y-block design/cross bolted mains.
Most of this is a moot point.

Torque is where it's at, how much torque does a 3 inch stroke 4 inch bore Ford engine offer? Compared to Chevy's 4 inch bore 3.48 stroke. Of course you can stroke that 302 to a 347 but the 350 can be stroked to a 383 and a 401 if you really wanted to get crazy.

I've never had an issue timing a 350 Chevy...sure you might have to reach back to grab the distributor to time it, not a huge deal. Were front mount distributors designed so chicks could time them?

A 348/409 vs. a 350 is apples to oranges. It was 2 different engine families. That would be like you arguing why can't you use 454 big block heads on a 350 Chevy?

What about a fuel pump on a 350? Again not a big deal. It is challenging to get it on, but not something one with the know how can't do. Besides that's really old school....in the fuel injection years you didn't find the fuel pump on the passenger side of the block.

The heads, water pump, starter, manifolds, oil pan, fuel pump on a 350 will fit a 267/283/305/307/327/400 and vice versa. All the trannies will fit to include those used behind the 4.3 liter V6 and the 194/230/250/292 inline six engines.
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Old 11-07-2009, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
10,715 posts, read 22,321,366 times
Reputation: 5137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deez Nuttz View Post
Most of this is a moot point.

Torque is where it's at, how much torque does a 3 inch stroke 4 inch bore Ford engine offer? Compared to Chevy's 4 inch bore 3.48 stroke. Of course you can stroke that 302 to a 347 but the 350 can be stroked to a 383 and a 401 if you really wanted to get crazy.

I've never had an issue timing a 350 Chevy...sure you might have to reach back to grab the distributor to time it, not a huge deal. Were front mount distributors designed so chicks could time them?

A 348/409 vs. a 350 is apples to oranges. It was 2 different engine families. That would be like you arguing why can't you use 454 big block heads on a 350 Chevy?

What about a fuel pump on a 350? Again not a big deal. It is challenging to get it on, but not something one with the know how can't do. Besides that's really old school....in the fuel injection years you didn't find the fuel pump on the passenger side of the block.

The heads, water pump, starter, manifolds, oil pan, fuel pump on a 350 will fit a 267/283/305/307/327/400 and vice versa. All the trannies will fit to include those used behind the 4.3 liter V6 and the 194/230/250/292 inline six engines.
true but you can also stroke a 351 windsor to 408CI I think both ford and chevy small blocks are great seeing asd I own both a 6.0 SBC in my car and a 5.0 SBF in my 91 F250 both are awsome and never gave me any problems and are both are easy to fix and cheap to mod .
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Old 11-07-2009, 02:48 PM
 
Location: Great Plains
25,584 posts, read 30,493,706 times
Reputation: 22713
Quote:
Originally Posted by usafracer View Post
Volume has nothing to do with it.

The simple fact that you can take a part from one and put it on another is great. A head, oil pan, valve covers, intake, and so on can all be used on the 265 up to the 400(steam holes required for the heads) Ford couldn't even make one engine let alone a family of engine that can make that claim.
The SBC is the best family of engines hands down. They are the standard that all others are measured against.
Flood the market... 350... So with many after market parts and lots of money you might end up with an acceptable. I don't care for the 350 one bit. Never had, likely never will. Yes I have owned and drove vehicles with the 350 and it did nothing for me.
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Old 11-07-2009, 04:12 PM
 
4,711 posts, read 10,518,783 times
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Small block Mopar (318/360) is better than both of them....in boats anyway. No "coasting" in a boat...they're pulling hard all the time. Marine use separates the men from the boys!

Easy to work on too....just torque down the rocker bar, no messing with adjusting valves. No gear on the distributor, just a slot...you're either right or wrong. Harmonic balancer comes off by hand, don't need a puller. Older ones have oil pump on the outside. This stuff matters when you're 100 miles out in the Atlantic.

I run 12 cylinder Detroits nowadays....but my Mopars towed in many a Ford or Chevy powered craft back in the day.
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Old 11-07-2009, 04:34 PM
 
Location: Earth
4,227 posts, read 20,280,133 times
Reputation: 2209
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTOlover View Post
true but you can also stroke a 351 windsor to 408CI I think both ford and chevy small blocks are great seeing asd I own both a 6.0 SBC in my car and a 5.0 SBF in my 91 F250 both are awsome and never gave me any problems and are both are easy to fix and cheap to mod .
That's pretty cool...going to 408 cubes.

Another engine that wasn't mentioned but is the bigger brother to the 350, is the 400 sbc. World products, I believe it is, makes a replacement block to the cast production block that allows you to bore the 4.125 bore of the 400 block to a 4.250 and then you can add in a 4.00 crank for a 454 small block! Bill Mitchell makes/sells a complete 454 small block that churns out up to (and I think even over) 600 hp...all in the side of a 350 Chevy package.

But of course as mentioned, the LSX series engines are phenomenal pieces that are lighter, and sturdier and can make more power w/o being untame as opposed to the old 350, and the 15 degree heads flow like nuts. No wonder you're beginning to see more and more LS1 swaps into old iron. I just wished they'd come out with a way to make the block look more "old school" so it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb, but I did see a 1967 Firebird for sale with an LS1 in it, almost looked like it was factory.
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Old 11-07-2009, 06:22 PM
 
Location: North Pole Alaska
886 posts, read 4,557,929 times
Reputation: 804
I have an 87 Mustang GT it is chevy powered. I built a healthy 385 stroker for half of what it would cost me to build a 347 to make the same power. On top of that my 385 does not eat oil. The pistons you have to use on the 347 SBF the oil control rings intersect the pin boss.
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