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Maybe this was mentioned earlier. When I go to car shows and cruise-ins, I often see Chevy (and other GM) engines swapped into Ford vehcles (usually street rods). I don't remember seeing a Ford engine in a Chevy, or any other vehicle besides a Ford. It certainly may happen, and I may not have noticed, or forgotten, but the Chevy engine in a Ford happens often enough that I asked a few people why it's done. I was told cheaper parts, mounting brackets are more consistent in Chevy engines, and better performance are all reasons. I'm not disputing or agreeing with these, just reporting them.
Because one guy did it.. and they all followed and fell for the hype. Just like many other areas in life.. follow the sheep. Now here's one I haven't mentioned, if one guy is secretly running a 383 B Chrysler, which is much like a big aftermarket tall deck big bore race small block chev or ford, the difference is the Chrysler is that way as it comes from the factory... with excellent rod ratio, big bore / short stroke that turns high rpm's with ease, steel internally balanced crank strong enough designed to pull rigs, the standard BB Chrysler cylinder heads that flow enough air when ported to make 600hp... and a streetable roller cam with standard shaft mount roller rockers bolting straight on.. none of those Chevy's or Ford's would understand what just happened.
Im honestly not a Chrysler fan. I just know that their old school engines, from looking at them from a sheer technical engineering point, and not to mention some freak 1/4 mile times from them to back this fact, have much better things going for them than equivalent ford and gm, in standard form. and so does a 500ci Cadillac motor, but those are so totally unspoken of, good luck even finding one to begin with.. let alone a part for them.
And the 426ci Hemi, like I said, when people knew how to cam them and turn the rpm's up, there was a guy with a brand new Hemi Cuda that was running high 9's n/a, back soon after it was sold new, daily driver. Not much changes, it's just that most people don't look into human history.
Same goes for the FORD Cleveland. The same 4V heads that were picking up the kids from school and doing the shopping.... were at NHRA tracks winning pro stock.
Nothing is faster now, than it was 35-50 years ago. Technology only serves what the oil barons want it to, and now it's cheaply refined CRUDE oil. They get a bank check for 330 million per day from one ocean oil rig, and we pour it into our LSX with 500-700hp, thinking it's 'technology'... when back beginning in 1960's... people had the same HP street cars... albeit on high octane and CR.. which is more fuel efficient.. for us that is.. not the petro companies... the cheaper they can sell pure crude pumped from mother earth... the better for them.
Yes, it is all infact a conspiracy. And the people behind it, the banker oil barons, who began it all with their buddies loaning money on gold they didn't have in stock in the 1700's, are now trillionaires these days, behind the scenes, who don't show themselves on any Forbes 'list' next to Bill Gates.
As for petrochemicals, thanks to John D Rockefeller and Standard OIL... this is now a petrochemical world... and we're all petrochemical girls...or boys.
I know this thread is about "HP" and about which engine one prefers to build up, but what about reliability? I own a 78 Lincoln Continental with a 400M "Smog" motor that is essentially a 351M Cleveland detuned.
From my experience owning this car for over a year now, the entire drivetrain is butter smooth from the C6 trans all the way back to the rear end. The biggest issue though is the tremendous lack of power from the 400M. It barely has enough to make it up over steep hills, and accelerates horribly. I understand this engine was built at a time when all the concerns in the world for Lincoln/Ford was that their engines would meet strict government emission laws, especially in CA, but it can be frustrating when you can't even pass anybody on the freeway and downright dangerous if a big rig is coming up fast on you.
The engine timing was severely retarded during this era, sparking super lean using weak cams, a long stroke, which is the biggest problem with this engine as it's made to pull a heavy car and nothing else more. The earlier 351 were pretty good engines from what I hear, but the mid-late 70's era 351's were complete dogs and a lot of the old "guts" that made the older 351 windsor so good was reduced internally in the later years.
IMO I think GM, Ford, and Chrysler all made great engines back then. Ford's 460, Cadillac's 472-500 were awesome motors, including the infamous Chrysler 440 block and the 413. Ford's 385 series, including the older MEL 430 blocks which were extremely durable and torque monsters, were also very good engines. One issue I always hear and is well documented is Fords bad oiling system in their engines.
It is true that when going to car shows and checking out everything from custom built up Hot Rods to Lowriders, the SB 350 Chev is what everybody puts in their GM cars and even Fords. You have to ask the question why that is?? If the Ford's were so great, then why isn't everybody installing them into their classic rides?
Many older cars that are built from the 50's-70's were far superior to cars built today. Now they might not have the refinement and technology of todays cars, but the beauty of the old stuff is that at least back then, you could buy a real full size car that can tow a boat, fit 6-8 people with ease, a car made out of steel and heavy duty components, with engines that were over engineered and could last a lifetime if well taken care of. A person even with little mechanical knowledge could work on their car. Repairs were much easier to do, the parts are cheap compared to a modern ride, and with those big cars, they could take a beating from rough roads and potholes and so on.
From owning a few old school cars and knowing how well they've held up over time, I can say that not all of the old stuff was "Junk". I've driven in new cars, and yes they are great and drive nicely, are quiet and comfortable, but will they hold up for 30+years??? I don't know, and really, I am not sure if I have the confidence that they will knowing how modern cars lack the "heavy duty" materials of the older cars and that they are far more mass produced with loads of crazy electronics that will ultimately kill the car prematurely because of the complexity of their designs and computer controlled everything. So if one small electrical sensors, or solenoid, or even a small microprocessor fails, the whole car can't function properly or not at all. What then??? The replacement part could outweigh the cost of keeping the car in the future thus more of them will most likely be junked.
I am also skeptical of a any 4 banger with a turbo pushing 300 HP. That's a lot of stress on a such a small motor that reliability concerns have to be a serious consideration in a time when people are keeping their cars much longer. But a old school big block V8 hitting 300-500 HP is a piece of cake and with that, at least you know that engine is big and durable enough to be built to withstand those kinds of power ratings without the worry about something breaking too soon, or overheating the bearings or damaging certain drivetrain components because you ran the engine too hard.
Of course a Chrysler engine can run 10's with stock parts...when it's plucked from the rust prone A/B/C body car it came in factory and then plucked into a 500 lb curb weight jr. dragster.
Of course a Chrysler engine can run 10's with stock parts...when it's plucked from the rust prone A/B/C body car it came in factory and then plucked into a 500 lb curb weight jr. dragster.
No need for me to tell you that's BS.. because many a 440 have been, and still are at drag strips globally, doing exactly what I've said.. in standard weight vehicles.
But hey your masters are obviously afraid of people latching onto that they can build a 10 second (reliable) car from so called junkyard parts from the 1960/70's.. no more millions of GM performance blocks, cranks, cylinder heads etc to be sold
The '68 Super Stock Hemi-Dart and Hemi-Barracuda ran 10.40s as bought and with slicks. They weighed 3,000-3,200 lbs.
I read somewhere nothing available off the showroom could pass their 1/4 time until the '05 bugatti veyron. Not sure if that is entirely true but either way they were fast and available to buy.
There were some fast clevelands around back in the day also. I agree with what some have said here, a SBC can't do what a cleveland can do with stock parts available back in the day. I once worked with a guy who was going 8's in a 2800 odd pound falcon, factory iron block (grout filled) and 4v heads, solid roller cam, all motor but methanol with high comp pistons to suit. The SBC heads just couldnt flow enough air to keep with it in its class.
The guy above has some valid points about stuff not changing much. People just think it has. Look what some 1963 cylinder heads can do for example.
Quote:
We ran 10.45 with this mild comb.
Standard bore 440, 1969 stock crank, stock rods
with Trw pistions 11.5-1, HV oil pump, MP .590 soild cam and 63 max wedge heads, unported. ATI convertor,
8 3/4 rear with 4.30 gears, 29.5x11.5-15 MT slick
on super stock springs. Car was 3400 lbs. All
steel.
Now I know thats a BB, but if that engine you subtracted 100 cubes it would still do anything a 340 odd cube lsx could do today with trick flows, afr's or CNC 5.3 heads bolted up top.
Theres all sorts of comparisons to be had, but again stock for stock, if you bolt stuff onto any factory based cleveland and rev it, it will leave any factory based SBC behind.
the 351 won't take much more than a 350HP build and then you have to worry about the block cracking- it just can't take the stress. Lots of 351 blocks out there that are broke from attempting top get too much from too little.
I disagree. Whether it be an older cleveland or windsor production block, you just cant generalise like that. Ive seen either handle repeated abuse and load in racing conditions, not just drag racing either, particularly the cleveland.
Example.
Quote:
351 Ford Cleveland stroked to 378 cu.in.
782.5 hp @ 8,000 rpm, 545.55 lb. ft. tq @ 7,000 rpm
The '68 Super Stock Hemi-Dart and Hemi-Barracuda ran 10.40s as bought and with slicks. They weighed 3,000-3,200 lbs.
Yes indeed
And any 3200-3400 lb 440 Mopar today with similar stock parts, and big solid or roller cam, will do mid 10's also on the factory heads. Many are... everywhere. Most are on standard heads, with a port job. Just the right cam, and proper bolt ons, tuned properly, they make 550-600hp easily, and reliably.. on a basically all standard short motor and heads. No balancing, limited machine work, limited aftermarket parts.
Heck, even seen some in the low 10's running the factory iron adjustable rocker arms.. being shaft mount they run so true that roller rockers aren't even necessary for a big solid cam.
It seems that guys are bolting in 350 chevs thinking you need all this aftermarket go fast gear to make 500hp.. for 2 reasons.. the BB Chev is not fast as a cheap mild build with it's own gear.. so they think a big block is heavy and not fast. A chev big block, yes. I've seen mild 454's that have nothing really over a good 350 Chev. So then the Chev guys think ALL big blocks aren't so flash.. because theirs isn't. Not as a factory engine with mild mods it isn't.
But Chrysler, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Cadillac, Ford... are all faster than Chevys when using as many of the factory parts the engine came with. Both big, and small blocks.
350 Chevs sell the most aftermarket parts possible. It's simple math. If you want people buying aftermarket parts... push and advertise the most inferior factory based engine on the masses. Ban the Cleveland and Hemi's from the tracks, cause they smoke any Chev anyday of the week with their own standard factory parts.
The fact that a 1968 Hemi did mid 10 sec 1/4's from the showroom floor... the corporations now selling millions of race blocks, cranks, heads, rods.... ecetera ... many now made in China using peasant labor, let me tell you that they want the 1960's muscle era forgotten Because if the majority start building Chrysler big blocks, there's no need to buy an aftermarket block, cranks, rods, cylinder heads, to make 600hp reliably.
One junkyard 440 that I put new rings and bearings in, was a factory smog cast crank external balance engine, I had it honed 5 thou, factory bores, reused the factory cast pistons and rods.. resized with ARP bolts, new clevite std size bearings and a $70 HV oil pump, windage tray, standard oil pan. new moly rings, standard crank journals (they were shiny enough). 8.5:1 CR, 557' mopar solid cam and crane gold rollers, PROPER ported 906 heads, 2.14/1.81 valves, Weiand Team G intake, single 850 dp out of the box holley, 2" headers, MSD 7-AL2, stock mopar electronic distributor. I never raced that car at the track, but I later sold the engine to someone who put it in a lightweight altered and it instantly went high 8's. from the calculation it was a mid 10 second engine easy in a 3300lb car. we're talking factory mid 1970's cast pistons and crank, rods, short motor as they came from the Chrysler Corp in the mid 1970's and someone was driving it to work and back since in some 1970's tank, before it went 8's in an altered on the same pistons and crankshaft, after I had abused the sh*t out of it on the street before that guy went and ran high 8 sec 1/4's with it. I had people saying 'wth' is in that thing, just from the sound of it. No mild Chev, small or big block had that sound let alone could eat an entire road until it was off the speedometer and keep going without breaking, over, and over.. with stock factory internals like that. ( I still had 3.23's in the rear, and the factory speedo would just wind over well past the 120mph mark )
If people don't believe it, go get one and try it. I turned It to 6800rpm, constantly. The 727 transmission was the same deal.. not sure if it was ever rebuilt since Chrysler made it in mid 1970's.. didn't care to look.. it came with the engine, and I bolted in a mopar kickdown lever and cheetah reverse valve body into it, with an aluminum deep pan, and hoped for the best.. and it shifted like a bullet.. over.. and over.. and over.
The way to kill a Chrysler big block and 727, is only if you get a blow torch onto it. Try and break one in a car.. when there's still oil in both of the oil pans.
As for Chrysler SB, same deal. rings bearings and ported stock heads, big cam .. low 11's on stock junk. all day long. seen enough of them, and they don't break easily. my LS1 did the same.. until it broke.
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Because if the majority start building Chrysler big blocks, there's no need to buy an aftermarket block, cranks, rods, cylinder heads, to make 600hp reliably.
