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View Poll Results: How do you feel about buying GM?
Less likely now, because of bailout 11 16.42%
Less likely now, because of economy 1 1.49%
More likely now, to show support 3 4.48%
More likely, just because I like the cars 20 29.85%
I wouldn't buy GM regardless 32 47.76%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-26-2010, 09:57 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
19,865 posts, read 18,308,470 times
Reputation: 7955

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DR1665 View Post
I guess, if I wanted to pay $100,000 for a sports car with a cheap plastic interior, and which was only entertaining on a race track if you enjoyed sliding around every corner on the edge of control, then yeah, I'd buy a Corvette too.

Thing is, for that kind of money, I could pick up 2 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution sedans, leave one completely stock for daily driving, and dump about $10,000 into the other for a track day car, which would make 50% more horsepower than the Vette, rape it off the line, and drop it like a bad habit at the first corner. And I'd still have $10,000 left to spend on entry fees.

I realize Mitsubishi's had a rough go of it in recent years, but they've got some very solid models being sold in other countries. I have no idea why they insist upon rebadging the dumpy Dakota as their truck offering here in the States, when they have a top-rated turbo diesel truck of their own just about everywhere else (the L200).

I have nothing negative to say about anyone's preference for vehicle brand so long as they're educated drivers. It's the clueless, halfwit, consumer wh*re sheep out there who vote with their wallets for commuter appliances which imply freedom from the responsibility of driving, leading to the added complexity, weight, and cost of new models, and those myopic crackers who keep beating that "buy American" drum.

We buy what best suits our needs. It annoys me that there are increasing numbers of "drivers" who need automatic transmissions, traction control, blind spot sensors, back-up sensors, adaptive cruise control, automatic parking, bluetooth, iPod connectivity, DVD navigation, and now internet on the dash. It's also annoying that people would ask us to continue to coddle the likes of GM, suggesting we spend our money on substandard goods in order to support a failed enterprise.

Meh. If you drive (not operate, there's a difference) a GM and you turn your own wrenches, you're A-OK in my book. We can learn something from each other and have a good time talking cars.
Well, the Corvette and the Camaro are basically the only GM car models known over here in Europe The Corvette is considered by far superior to the usual GM stuff, getting relatively good reviews (maybe even better ones if it weren't for the European chauvinism in that realm) Sure, build quality might be an issue, too much plastic, but I guess potential buyers are aware of that and can live with it. If one wants a status symbol in order to brag one could buy a Ferrari or Lamborghini, but if one only wants a sports car for the fun and speed, a Corvette should do. Why pay xxx,xxx dollars more for an acceleration that is maybe 1 second faster and a top speed that is 20mph faster and nobody can achieve anyway without being dead afterwards.
The Corvette has quite a long history, it has been improved generation after generation. Thus I would trust the engineering behind the plastic mask so to speak.

Last edited by Neuling; 03-26-2010 at 10:05 AM..
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Old 03-26-2010, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Indiana
1,306 posts, read 2,570,828 times
Reputation: 888
I've never really understood the "too much plastic" argument. I mean, what is the interior of your car made of? Wood and metal?
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Old 03-26-2010, 11:23 AM
 
Location: PHX, AZ
210 posts, read 523,518 times
Reputation: 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadro77 View Post
You can sink $10,000 into a lancer and make 50% more HP then a Vette? lol How?

Here are the Vette numbers:

LS3 430 HP
LS7 505 HP
LS9 638 HP

I don't know which Vette your speaking of but you claim you can get a 238 HP lancer to make 645, 757 or 957 HP? Come on.

I think you would be better off saving your money and just run a Lancer Ralliart against a Cobalt SS lol. Even though the Cobalt makes more HP and has better 0-60 and 1/4 mile times, I'm sure that would be the safer bet for you. LOL
Heh. Your argument presumes I'm one of those guys who thinks highly of himself because he bought a car with a lot of horsepower. I am not. I'm a gearhead. I do not leave my cars alone. I neither need nor want a warranty. I have minimal interest in the latest, mass produced, drive-by-wire, overweight, over-priced, keeping-up-with-the-Joneses models.

My Mitsubishi Galants might not be worth as much as that four year old, base model Vette, but where there are tens of thousands of Vettes on the road in this country at any given moment, there were only 3000 Galant VR4s ever sold in North America. I own two of them.

I sh-t you not, sir. There are easily a handful of 2.0, 2.3, and 2.4L Mitsubishi 4-bangers out there putting more than 1000hp to all four wheels. There are 7 second quarter-mile dragsters and 220mph land speed record holders. Yes, those represent the upper limits of the platform these days, but 400-600hp at the wheels is almost commonplace.

I could buy a $1500, barely running 90-94 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX, spend about $6000 on freshening up the engine and trans, upgrading a few select components, and flat out SCHOOL that 600hp, 11sec blown Corvette at the track. With a car I paid less than $8000 CASH for.

I'm not saying the Vette is lame, weak, or otherwise undeserving, but when the horespower and speed numbers are the main talking points, and those numbers are commonly attainable by the four bangers I run with, you might understand why my attention would be more directed towards the cheap (for a six figure car) interior and embarrassing track record of the manufacturer.

600hp and an 11sec quarter are nothing to sneeze at, especially for a showroom stock car, but I see dozens of four bangers clicking off tens and below every summer at Summit Motorsports Park in Norwalk, Ohio.

To each his own, though. Like I said, you turn your own wrenches, I've got a handshake and a cold one for you in my garage, brother.
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Old 03-26-2010, 11:52 AM
 
Location: Morgantown, WV
978 posts, read 1,861,119 times
Reputation: 958
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadro77 View Post
I've never really understood the "too much plastic" argument. I mean, what is the interior of your car made of? Wood and metal?
Let's run a quick comparison between the aesthetics of Pontiac Solstice and the comparable Nissan Z:

On the Outside We Have This:
-Two amazing cars...very comparable in styling, but GM REALLY hit a HR on the looks of the Solstice. It's perfect, kind of like a baby Corvette. The Z is no slouch though.





And On the Inside, We Have This:
-A dash made from something that looks and feels like tupperware lids, recycled G5/Cobalt gauge clusters and in-dash head units, knobs from a Hummer, parts bin stearing wheel used on all models, a hand brake on the passenger's side?, and doors that look like they're straight from the old recycled Soviet-grade stuff that was used on the Cavaliers and every other cheap GM car for the last 20+ years. Hardly what you would expect from a car in this kind of price point. Compared to the Z's faux-leather textured plastic parts, quality stearing wheel, beautiful dash + cluster layout, and just the overall attention to detail and quality parts used...well I'm not so happy about a $30K exterior being essentially equal to my mom's base model Cobalt, and inferior to my sister's Mazda 3 .



Last edited by TelecasterBlues; 03-26-2010 at 12:45 PM..
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Old 03-26-2010, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
4,464 posts, read 9,630,498 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadro77 View Post
I've never really understood the "too much plastic" argument. I mean, what is the interior of your car made of? Wood and metal?
Most times it refers to the type of plastic more than anything, but move a notch up to the BMW/Volvo/Merc market and Aluminum, leather and wood are indeed integral parts of the interior.
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Old 03-26-2010, 12:04 PM
 
Location: North Carolina
1,077 posts, read 3,056,910 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DR1665 View Post
I sh-t you not, sir. There are easily a handful of 2.0, 2.3, and 2.4L Mitsubishi 4-bangers out there putting more than 1000hp to all four wheels. There are 7 second quarter-mile dragsters and 220mph land speed record holders. Yes, those represent the upper limits of the platform these days, but 400-600hp at the wheels is almost commonplace.
Of course there is. There is also 8,000hp small/big blocks as well.

Quote:
I could buy a $1500, barely running 90-94 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX, spend about $6000 on freshening up the engine and trans, upgrading a few select components, and flat out SCHOOL that 600hp, 11sec blown Corvette at the track. With a car I paid less than $8000 CASH for.
I could find a barely running pos '93-'97 LT1 Camaro for $1500-$2500, put $6,000 back into the motor and school the Eclipse.

I guess I just don't understand your concept here. Of course you can make power out of a 4-cylinder engine. But why put that money in a 4 cylinder when you can put it in a V8 and produce a lot more power. Depending on what motor or car, it would likely be cheaper as well.
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Old 03-26-2010, 12:07 PM
 
Location: PHX, AZ
210 posts, read 523,518 times
Reputation: 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by TelecasterBlues View Post
Pontiac Solstice: . . . GM REALLY hit a HR on the looks of the Solstice. It's perfect, kind of like a baby Corvette.
Sorry. GM is not a fan of badge engineering, so Pontiac had to go. No room for the outselling-the-Miata Solstice or universally-regarded-as-brilliant G8 between the Malibu (Opel Insignia), Lacrosse (Opel Insignia), Regal (Opel Insignia), Lucerne (Opel Insignia), XTS (Opel Insignia), and Impala (Opel Insignia). No room for badge-engineering on the truck lots either between the Silverado, Sierra (Silverado), Avalanche (Silverado), Tahoe (Silverado), Suburban (Silverado), and Escalade (Silverado).

But hey. They kept the Cobalts and, one of these days, will have that super awesome electric Volt that's just going to make us all want to sing and dance!

Meanwhile, Ford basically pulls the plug on Mercury. The Fiesta is phenominal and stands alone. The Fusion and Taurus are probably sharing platforms with the Lincoln MKZ or whatever, but those Lincolns are freaking sexy, and what else are they going to do? I think the Lincoln Navigator is dead now, so that means a Ford truck is a Ford truck is a Ford truck.

They also saw the writing on the wall and covered their arses before the bottom fell out, keeping them from having to swindle billions out of the American tax payer. Which is more American? I might be partial to foreign brands, but there are plenty of Fords that I would really like to consider in person.
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Old 03-26-2010, 12:23 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
19,865 posts, read 18,308,470 times
Reputation: 7955
For a couple of weeks there has been a commercial for a Chevrolet Spark on TV, but I am not sure what it is inside (maybe Opel), it is so small, does not look like an American car at all
I never quite understood the brand policy of GM. Oldsmobile and Buick seemed pretty much the same to me, and both just cheaper versions of Cadillac

I think they should regroup: Chevrolet for sports cars, Cadillac for limousines, Pontiac for compact and green cars, GMC for SUVs and trucks. And Buick for motorcycles and bicycles ^^

Last edited by Neuling; 03-26-2010 at 12:32 PM..
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Old 03-26-2010, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Lehigh Acres
1,777 posts, read 4,056,731 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadro77 View Post
Same here. I got my Chevrolet dealer to let me test drive one a few years back and that 6.0 will get that TB moving!! Great little SUV, I wish they wouldn't have axed it.

The Jeep Cherokee SRT-8 is actually a little quicker and still in production if your looking for a performance SUV. That is if your a Chrysler fan .
Wouldn't own a chrysler, the only thing I like about any of their products is a Cummins....

That, and I wouldn't buy an AWD TB, it would be a RWD SS. SRT-8 WK's are all AWD, not my cup of tea
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Old 03-26-2010, 12:26 PM
 
Location: PHX, AZ
210 posts, read 523,518 times
Reputation: 188
AW, YEAH! BENCH RACING! I LOVE THIS SH-T!
Let's DO this!

Quote:
Originally Posted by gman6974 View Post
Of course there is. There is also 8,000hp small/big blocks as well.
There are also slow-boat-to-China cargo ships packing 100,000hp mills, but those levels are purpose built and beyond practical. Guess that's my bad for not realizing we were bench racing, here.

I highly doubt 8000hp is possible on pump gas, or even "gas" at all. At this time, I can't think of any imports (although the Eclipse has always been built in the USA by Americans) running nitromethane... yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gman6974 View Post
I could find a barely running pos '93-'97 LT1 Camaro for $1500-$2500, put $6,000 back into the motor and school the Eclipse.
Apples to apples, oranges to oranges. I don't mind a little debate (after all, that's how we learn things), but we really ought to define terms like "school" don'tcha think?

So let's be real, here. (I think this could be fun.)
- Your choice of chassis, 100% stock and unchanged aside from the engine.
- $6000 budget to do whatever you want to the ORIGINAL engine (block).
- Running on gasoline (93 unleaded, 105 E85, 116 leaded - no nitro).

What sort of numbers would you expect? HP? 1/4 mile?

I know I could put over 400hp to the wheels in a 2L Eclipse for well below $3000. For $6000? Shi-t. I dunno. Turbos capable of over 800hp only cost about $2000, so...

Quote:
Originally Posted by gman6974 View Post
I guess I just don't understand your concept here. Of course you can make power out of a 4-cylinder engine. But why put that money in a 4 cylinder when you can put it in a V8 and produce a lot more power. Depending on what motor or car, it would likely be cheaper as well.
For me, the 4-banger is sexier. It's overhead cams and forced induction. It's being able to stand up, look Goliath in the eyes, and call him a little girl. It's also nice to calm down and tick off 30mpg or more around town more often than not.

I guess, if I really wanted to do something with a V8, I'd probably make my own version of the Volvette. Twin turbo LS1 under the hood of a mid-90s Volvo station wagon. I've seen the way he pulls away from street bikes in that thing at 200mph. It's naaaasty.

Last edited by DR1665; 03-26-2010 at 12:29 PM.. Reason: botched quote tags
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