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Looking for some input on what it costs to fly privately.... What are your fixed costs versus variable. Let's say you are flying a cheap old C152 or C150, or some other ~$20k plane, perhaps a '46-47 Aeronca Chief or Champ, bought outright.
How much is insurance (roughly)?
Annual (no DIY)?
How much should you put aside per hour for engine replacement?
How much should you put aside per hour for other (non engine) maintenance and is this separate from expected annual cost (obviously annual costs $$$ whether there is something wrong or not).
What are the hidden fees you don't think of--aircraft registration, etc. ? Bi annual flight review?
There is a lot you can do on your own plane, but a annual is not one of them, it must be performed by a IA, that being said, you can do a owner assisted annual where you open and close the plane and let the IA do the inspecting and required servicing. As far as the other costs, you will have to do your own research and come up with your own numbers. There are some things you can do to decrease costs such as doing your own oil changes, changing your brake pads, running recapped tires ( I highly recommend this, they are cheaper and a harder compounded rubber and you will get a lot more life out of them at a fraction of the cost of a new tire ). You will have the cost of a bi annual transponder certification as well. The best thing you can do to decrease costs and learn more about your plane is to work with your A&P and do as much as you and they feel comfortable doing. I have several customers that are excellent mechanics and I mostly supervise them, others that if I see with a tool in their hand, I have to talk to in soft tones until I get it away from them.
A&P, IA, PPSEL
How much is insurance (roughly)? Depends on plane and pilot. Anywhere for $700 to unlimited. Total time and time in type are the major factors.
Annual (no DIY)? Depends. For a fixed gear C150, maybe $700-$1000. Twin turbine KA350? $40,000 an up
How much should you put aside per hour for engine replacement? At least $20 per hour, assuming you are starting with a 0-time engine. If you buy a plane with an engine at TBO, you should have the money in the bank for that time when it starts making metal.
How much should you put aside per hour for other (non engine) maintenance and is this separate from expected annual cost (obviously annual costs $$$ whether there is something wrong or not). At least another $20 for oil, prop, brakes, tires, an ancillary costs
What are the hidden fees you don't think of--aircraft registration, etc. ? Bi annual flight review? Yes and avionics upgrades, ADS-B by 2020, GPS database subscriptions, landing fees, non-owner (renters) insurance, tie-downs, hangars, property tax (depending on state). The list is pretty long.
One thing I can tell you from owning two planes - there is always something going wrong and always something you didn't budget for. Also from a personal viewpoint, a C-150 or Aeronca Chief or Champ is not a cross-country machine. Too slow and lightweight to get anywhere whilst carrying a useful load. If you just want to putter around the area then OK.
Looking for some input on what it costs to fly privately.... What are your fixed costs versus variable. Let's say you are flying a cheap old C152 or C150, or some other ~$20k plane, perhaps a '46-47 Aeronca Chief or Champ, bought outright.
First of all, there's nothing "cheap" about GA. You'll need to spend what it takes to accomplish your goals. If just being able to fly low and slow is your goal, to just get into the air and enjoy ... the costs can be low.
How much is insurance (roughly)?
What drives the cost of insurance is the hull value of the aircraft and your experience/ratings and history. Even though you may not need to use it, an instrument rating will qualify you for lower insurance costs than only having an ASEL ticket. A modest aircraft of $20K value would be reasonably inexpensive for a qualified pilot who maintains currency. I pay less than $600/year for a C182 with a much higher value, a couple thousand accident free hours in the logbook, and an ASEL Instrument rating.
Keep in mind that the little taildraggers will likely have a higher cost of insurance than the nosewheel planes, since the tailwheel aircraft have a historically higher accident rate in ground handling/taxiing/landing & take-off incidents.
Annual (no DIY)?
In my area, probably around $600-800 to pay an IA/shop to do the annual without any owner input.
How much should you put aside per hour for engine replacement?
Those basic 100HP (or smaller) 4 cylinder engines are pretty inexpensive for what they deliver, with thousands of hours service life not uncommon. You can get an off-the-shelf reman from major suppliers with your rebuildable core for a fixed price, check the prices in the ads in Trade-A-Plane to get a guideline number. Or you can get a field overhaul based upon condition by your local FBO, which may be less expensive. I'd venture that you could get a 100HP Continental or Lycoming engine overhaul with accessories (starter, generator, carburetor, mags) in the low teens, which works out to about $8/hour for a 2,000 hr service life. To reach that kind of life, you've need to fly frequently enough to keep internal corrosion minimized and to change oil frequently (especially if there's no oil filter installed, about every 25 hours). These aircraft are very simple to work on, and an engine R&R isn't a major project ... I've seen them changed out in a matter of hours by experienced A&P's. For that matter, I've seen mechanically inclined owners do this in a day-long project under the watchful eye of their IA.
Keep in mind that you may not need a full engine overhaul in an extended service life use. I've seen a fair number of these engines go way past TBO with only a top-end cylinder overhaul. As a private pilot flying the plane for personal use, you do not need to replace an engine at arbitrary manufacturer TBO times. If you are new to aviation, I'd advise you to read Mike Busch's articles about "on condition" service lives of aircraft engines to get a better understanding of aviation engine service life.
What will be a significant factor is the actual condition of the engine at the time of your purchase. If an engine has mid-life TBO hours on it, you need to adjust the purchase price to reflect those hours already on the engine. In any event, a thorough pre-buy inspection (not an annual inspection) by a knowledgeable A&P familiar with the aircraft and engine series is not an option, IMO, before spending any money on a purchase. You're looking at aircraft that will be 50 or more years old, so will have a lot of history to them; simple, but you need to be sure what it is you're buying.
I read above a $20/hour engine reserve figure. Maybe on a complex 6-cylinder ... but even my O-470R hasn't come anywhere close to that number in 30 years of ownership. Even with mid-time cylinder overhauls as needed (I do them on an as-needed condition basis, never all 6 "just because" one is low on compression), I've not spent $10/hr for 1,800 hours on my engine. But I do most of the work ... under the watchful eye of my IA who signs off on it. Component overhauls, of course, are sent out to the appropriate shops for their services/yellow tagging; a cylinder overhaul for my O-470 runs about $900, for example.
How much should you put aside per hour for other (non engine) maintenance and is this separate from expected annual cost (obviously annual costs $$$ whether there is something wrong or not).
Of course, the airframe expenses are separate. There are routine owner/operator services which you can legally perform, such as the oil changes, tire changes, etc., listed by the FAA that you can do and enter into the logbooks. If you're looking at mostly local type flying for a modest aircraft as you've listed, then you'll not need much more than a basic steam gauge panel which was original to the aircraft. In time, you'll need to upgrade the transponder to the new specs, but the price for these is coming down drastically; AOPA Pilot had an article this month where the new transponders are in the $800 range and direct bolt-ins for some very common existing ones. Installation shouldn't be very expensive. Other than that, I think it prudent to use an iPad for your charts and flight planning ... common services that will far exceed your general needs are a whopping $79/year for a subscription (Foreflight works really well for me and has all the airways, sectionals, and IFR info that I need ... along with instant weather reporting enroute, I don't even have to mess around with tuning in a airport ATIS on the radio, I can get all the area weather reports in seconds with Foreflight ... which is only one of several such services). A basic nav/com radio upgrade to the latest requirements (and you only need one in the panel) is a couple grand or less, as a one-time expense right now. For local only flying, you can easily supplement your older panel with a modest cost hand-held ... Sporty's (and others) have some highly rated Nav-Com radios for well under $500.
What's significant here is that if you aren't heading into major controlled airport spaces (Class B) and busy airspace cross country flying, you'll find that you can enjoy aviation for a very modest cost ... if you are adjusting your equipment and requirements to what is really needed for the tasks as opposed to thinking that you've got to have the same equipment as somebody with a complex high performance single engine aircraft with an entirely different set of parameters to negotiate their flying profile/mission.
What are the hidden fees you don't think of--aircraft registration, etc. ? Bi annual flight review?
FAA renewal registration every 3 years is nominal ... IIRC, my last one was $15. Some states may have ownership taxes, you'll need to check on that locally. BFR's with my local friendly CFII are $100, and an ICC (which my insurer likes to see me get every couple of years) run $120 but count as a BFR when he combines all the requirements for the ride. Don't forget your medical costs ... A 3rd class uncomplicated medical is typically well under $100; depending upon your age, this isn't a daunting cost spread over the years. Consider, too, that some of the aircraft you're looking at may qualify for the LSA requirements and not need a medical cert ... you can self-certify your health with nothing more than a valid driver's license in hand. For daytime VFR and fair weather flying, this may just be the ticket for your aviation habit.
A local small airstrip for your flying habit shouldn't be too exhorbitant. I hangar my 182 for $840/year, or could tie down outside for much less than that ... I figure that the savings in weathering wear/tear on my plane are more than offset by the cost of the hangar. But you don't need a full-service airport for a modest small single aircraft, where hangar costs would be much more expensive. Depending upon where you are in the country, I see small airstrips where you can keep a bird in a hangar for well under $100/month, and I've landed at country airstrips where the bulletin board has "hangar for rent" notices for under $50/month. Of course, these are older structures that aren't fancy, some of them simple t-hangars or port-a-ports that don't have electricity or fancy overhead bi-fold doors ... but the bottom line is that they are shelter for your plane at a modest cost.
Keep in mind that fancy paint, high dollar panels and interiors don't make a plane safer or fly better for many uses. For example, the paint on my 182 is at least 40 years old and it looks good enough to get compliments on it's appearance everywhere I go. Folk do a double-take when they see the bird on the ramp because it looks pretty decent and they realize it's as old a bird as it is ... and it's not a hangar queen. Your older plane, with a bit of care and attention to maintenance and cosmetic details can be similar.
With aircraft that have approx 100 mph cruise speeds, you have a great deal of utility in hand. Figure a few hours of cruising range, and it's not unreasonable to look at a 250-300 mile radius of flight. If you're not in a hurry, a day of flying could realistically be a 600 +/- day of travels without stretching any capability in decent weather. As a two-seater with a modest baggage, that's a lot of capability for fun and adventure. Figure around 4-5 gallons per hour, and it's not too expensive a venture, even with today's fuel prices. Even lower if you can find non-ethanol fuel and have a STC for MOGAS on your old lower compression aviation engine.
I think a lot of folk flying today have lost sight of what aviation has to offer for many pilots. On of my IA's is based at an airstrip with an NDB approach, and he routinely flies in/out of there with an Aircoupe or a C140. He's taken both to Oshkosh through the years, and has no issues with two days of flying there ... a modest lightweight tent and sleeping bags, camping kit ... and he's set to go. You look at the panels, and he's flying aircraft with mostly original equipment except for the addition of a newer radio and ELT. With a handheld GPS, and now an iPad 2 GPS unit ... he's got everything he needs for cross-country travels, although most of his flying is within a 200 mile radius of visiting rural and farm/ranch strips to visit friends.
My wife still talks about all the fun she had years ago doing a C150 delivery from KAPA to a rural ranch strip in the Dallas area. Took 3 days due to weather, but she had her modest camping kit/supplies and was anticipating the stops enroute at little country airstrips for fuel and a break enroute. Quite the adventure, and a lot of fun for her. The flight back in a Mooney at 230 mph wasn't nearly as much fun as the low/slow flight for the trip south.
Even today, if I'm not in a hurry, I can run the C182 at 9 GPH at just under 50% HP. The trade-off is 20 mph less in cruise than the 12 GPH settings ... and if I've got a favorable tailwind, my speed over the ground can still be maintained. Had a flight back from Sheridan WY to Cheyenne last year where I saw 70 mph boost on the tail at 2,500' AGL. No need to push on that flight, it was a smooth ride and fun. A C150 would have seen over the ground airspeeds that day in the 170 mph range.
Looking for some input on what it costs to fly privately.... What are your fixed costs versus variable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by timfountain
One thing I can tell you from owning two planes - there is always something going wrong and always something you didn't budget for. Also from a personal viewpoint, a C-150 or Aeronca Chief or Champ is not a cross-country machine. Too slow and lightweight to get anywhere whilst carrying a useful load. If you just want to putter around the area then OK.
I was a part owner in a few airplanes, flying clubs, EAA Chapters and can be a good way to go if everyone gets along. We outright owned our last plane, a C-150H which we had 10 years and sold it in 1999.
timfountain appears to be pretty much "right on", he did not mention AD's (Airworthy Directives). We got hit with two AD's, but they did not break the bank for us and I did the work under the supervision of a few A&P's and an A&P with AI.
My wife got her Private License in the plane from start to finish and we put about 600 hours on the plane over 10 years just puttering around local PA, MD, WV to fly-ins, etc. Major events (Oshkosh, Lakeland, etc), we had a new GMC pickup which could get us there faster. We gave up flying in 1999, careers, relocation, medical and just put it aside. No regrets. We have a lot of fond memories and had a lot of friends who had their own planes, antiques, warbirds, experimentals and just GA.
If you're flying based out of an area where the C150 performance and payload is adequate for your needs, I'd strongly advise you to fly that as much as you can for your training.
Why? because this lighter aircraft brings you closer to "feeling" what the airplane is doing than a heavier, more powerful aircraft. When you make control inputs, you will be immediately subjected to a result. When you do things "right", such as coordinating a turn and keeping the ball centered, you'll be rewarded with the results. When you do things not as well as you should be, you'll see the results. You will learn to fly to a more critical level of understanding and performance in such an aircraft ... and these were designed specifically to be a trainer. They were designed to teach you good flying habits.
OTOH, the heavier more powerful C172 aircraft will mask these outcomes; ie, the aircraft will make up for your basic mistakes and continue flying. It was designed as an "everyman's airplane", suited for a mission profile that delivers 4-seat carrying capacity with reasonable cruise speed and range. These aircraft will readily mask less than proficient flying habits if you haven't developed the skills to begin with.
IF you start out in a C150/2 and build up 40-50 hours in it ... or more ... and then transition to the C172, the difference in weight and power will be readily apparent. But you'll be a more capable pilot with having spent the time previously mastering the lighter airplane. Your fundamental stick and rudder skills will be far more sensitive and developed because you needed to use them effectively in the C150.
It's comparable to the difference in learning to ride a motorcycle starting out on a 250cc tiddler and then transitioning to a 750-1000 cc bike. Or learning to sail a dinghy before you transitioned to a 20' keel boat. Or learning to ski on "beginner's" skis before stepping onto higher performing skis.
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