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Old 01-20-2016, 03:01 PM
 
Location: Kalamalka Lake, B.C.
3,563 posts, read 5,373,611 times
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In terms of cognitive awareness there are some jobs you really shouldn't be doing after 50, or perhaps 55, in my humble opinion. Or at least you shouldn't be responsible for the lives of others: Bus drivers and pilots and long haul truckers.

At that age if you want to stay in the industry you should be in training, management, safety, etc. but it is time to be armchair warrior.
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Old 01-20-2016, 03:32 PM
 
9,408 posts, read 11,926,044 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedwightguy View Post
In terms of cognitive awareness there are some jobs you really shouldn't be doing after 50, or perhaps 55, in my humble opinion. Or at least you shouldn't be responsible for the lives of others: Bus drivers and pilots and long haul truckers.

At that age if you want to stay in the industry you should be in training, management, safety, etc. but it is time to be armchair warrior.
Ok...
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Old 01-20-2016, 03:41 PM
 
Location: Log "cabin" west of Bangor
7,058 posts, read 9,074,602 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garthur View Post
I just watched a show where the pilot lost his electronic flight instrumentation system and for some reason decided to pull up on the yoke and stalled at 30,000 feet. On another show the Captain and co-pilot were so occupied with a warning light that they flew the plane into the ground. At least 50% of the accidents I read about are pilot error and just stupid mistakes.
LOL, that reminds me of something that happened when I was in a little twin-engine de Havilland...I was in the first seat behind the pilots and could see everything. A little red light on the panel started blinking, the pilot flipped a number of switches in rapid succession but the light continued to blink and after a bit he looked at the co-pilot, held up his hands and shrugged as if to say "Dunno, beats the snot out of *me*. You got any ideas?"

The co-pilot repeated the exercise, with different switches, but the same result. Then he did the same shrug "Beats me" back to the pilot. They ignored the light, and after a while it stopped blinking.

Some time after that, the pilot had his left elbow up on the little side window ledge, two fingers and a thumb on the yoke. My guess is that he took a little nap...his elbow slipped of the window ledge, the yoke pushed in and twisted to the left...yeah, that was interesting.
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Old 01-20-2016, 06:48 PM
 
Location: Wyoming
9,724 posts, read 21,224,032 times
Reputation: 14823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zymer View Post
LOL, that reminds me of something that happened when I was in a little twin-engine de Havilland...I was in the first seat behind the pilots and could see everything. A little red light on the panel started blinking, the pilot flipped a number of switches in rapid succession but the light continued to blink and after a bit he looked at the co-pilot, held up his hands and shrugged as if to say "Dunno, beats the snot out of *me*. You got any ideas?"

The co-pilot repeated the exercise, with different switches, but the same result. Then he did the same shrug "Beats me" back to the pilot. They ignored the light, and after a while it stopped blinking.

Some time after that, the pilot had his left elbow up on the little side window ledge, two fingers and a thumb on the yoke. My guess is that he took a little nap...his elbow slipped of the window ledge, the yoke pushed in and twisted to the left...yeah, that was interesting.
We're on a long cross-country in the Comanche years ago (on autopilot) with my teenage son, riding right seat, taking a little nap. Suddenly the plane pitches down a bit and starts to slow. I'm scratching my head trying to figure out what's happening and finally notice the flaps are fully extended. The gangly teenager hit the flap switch with his knee in his sleep!

Another time I'm on a one-passenger charter flight in a C210. Everything is smooth as silk until I get on short final when it suddenly takes all (or nearly all) my left leg strength to keep the rudder neutral. I considered going around but decided it would be more prudent at that point to just land. As soon as we landed the rudder was normal again. As I taxied up to park I asked my passenger, a middle-aged gal who hadn't flown much, if she had been pushing on the rudder pedal while we were on final approach.

"Rudder pedal? You mean the footrest down there? Probably."
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Old 01-20-2016, 08:36 PM
 
16,538 posts, read 8,579,208 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 11thHour View Post
I can only speak for myself, but everyplace I've worked, including my current airline, has encouraged us to fly at different automation levels in good weather just to keep our proficiency up. This includes all the way down to 'raw data', with no autopilot nor autothrottle assistance. Otherwise, yes, it is easy to get complacent over time and use the automation as crutch rather than as an aid. I think it's good the FAA recognizes this and wants to combat it.

However, certain foreign airlines are known among those in the industry as tying the hands of their pilots. They are expected to use the highest levels of automation at all times in all conditions, and this is not good! That's when you have issues like the Asiana crashing short of the runway while performing a basic visual approach in SFO.

However, in the EU you have ACROSS ( Across | Advanced cockpit for reduction of stress and workload ) , which seeks to add a lot more automation, to the point they envision single-pilot airline operations. Let me tell you, I will not do this job single pilot. No way. I wouldn't want to be a passenger on single pilot airline either. WAY too much can go wrong. Then there's the issue of the pilot getting sick or incapacitated in flight on top of that. I don't want to do this job if it gets to the point of simply being there to babysit computers. No thanks. Even on the highly advanced plane I fly now, it is nowhere near that point. I'm hoping the sort of stuff ACROSS want happens after I retire out.
Rest assured many pilots of the previous generation predicted this very problem. For lack of a better way to put it, pilots are becoming too soft.
The complacency of depending on technology effects many segments of our society, and the airline industry is no different.


As a side note, several respected pilots have told me that Oriental pilots by and large are so dependent on technology, that they can be dangerous when expected to perform on their own. Within hours of Asiana Airline Flight 214's crash landing, I knew who was calling to say "see what I mean".
Food for thought.




`
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Old 01-20-2016, 08:58 PM
 
Location: Denver
3,377 posts, read 9,203,461 times
Reputation: 3427
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedwightguy View Post
In terms of cognitive awareness there are some jobs you really shouldn't be doing after 50, or perhaps 55, in my humble opinion. Or at least you shouldn't be responsible for the lives of others: Bus drivers and pilots and long haul truckers.

At that age if you want to stay in the industry you should be in training, management, safety, etc. but it is time to be armchair warrior.
Help me validate your opinions

How long have you been:

- A professional bus driver
- A professional pilot
- A professional long haul trucker
- A professional cognitive awareness evaluator
- A professional armchair warrior

Thank you.
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Old 01-20-2016, 11:12 PM
 
Location: Denver
3,377 posts, read 9,203,461 times
Reputation: 3427
Quote:
Originally Posted by wankel7 View Post
Help me validate your opinions

How long have you been:

- A professional bus driver
- A professional pilot
- A professional long haul trucker
- A professional cognitive awareness evaluator
- A professional armchair warrior

Thank you.
By the way it is ok if you have only been just one of these things....
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Old 01-21-2016, 12:36 AM
 
1,960 posts, read 4,661,992 times
Reputation: 5416
Quote:
Originally Posted by wankel7 View Post
I do not need a mandate requiring me to be able to hand fly the airplane safely. I take that as my own responsibility.
But your peers don't. The FAA knows that if part 121 crews, especially senior/CA type folk at mainline, are put through the paces with more expanded required hand flying tasks while IMC, the failure rates would skyrocket at the sim evals.

When you're like many senior widebody global reserve types (a United term, but you get my drift), rehacking landing currencies at the sim in order to go do your job, and you haven't touched an airplane in your private/recreational life, you can't tell me with a straight face you're on your A game to do a V1 cut to a return, all in IMC to ILS minima, all hand flown. You'll be all over the sky SpatialD'ng your way across that localizer course like a trainee. Handflying in IMC is an incredibly perishable skillset.

Automation has allowed the regionals to staff their operations in ways that would have gotten them sanctioned out of existence 30 years ago. It is nonetheless, a ticking time bomb because we keep pushing our luck. Another Colgan 3407 is prime to happen, especially in this expanded hiring environment at mainline forcing the issue at the regionals, which are absorbing every and any Lt. Strugglebus with 1500 hours they can get their hands on.

The training landscape in the event of a more rigid requirement for handflying proficiency during yearly evals would be deemed too onerous and the airlines would whine to high hell. Better leave the baby with crap diapers than to uncover the source of the smell. God help us all one of you 121 pros don't lose the autopilot electrics or primary PFD on a skosh wx day.

I commend you for having the moral imperative to respect the perishable nature of hand flying, but my own anectodal evidence does not support the idea your perspective is reflective of the majority of part 121 participants, especially the senior ones. UPS @ BHM is a perfect example of two senior folk too rusty to fly themselves out of a wet paper bag, attempting to "FMS voice command" the airplane, all the way to their graves. May they rest in peace. I digress. Many like them lurk in the industry.
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Old 01-21-2016, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Metro Washington DC
15,424 posts, read 25,795,620 times
Reputation: 10450
Quote:
Originally Posted by wankel7 View Post
I do not need a mandate requiring me to be able to hand fly the airplane safely. I take that as my own responsibility.
That''s great, but what about other pilots?
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Old 01-21-2016, 09:04 AM
 
Location: New Jersey and hating it
12,200 posts, read 7,214,417 times
Reputation: 17473
I envision one day, just like for automobiles, planes will be pilotless. Imagine that.
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