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Aside from a few brief periods airline industry of the USA has rarely been profitable since deregulation. Right now between record low oil prices (which have helped but also hurt as some airlines placed bad hedge bets), lack of competition and a few other factors most USA carriers are showing *some* profit ATM, but that varies by airline and can change.
US carriers are making money now by putting the squeeze on passengers. Nearly every GD thing that once was free has a fee attached. Frequent flyer wanting that free upgrade into First Class? Forget it happening unless you "bid" or otherwise pay.
Loyalty programs are becoming more and more of a joke as either the amount of points required is insane.
Many carriers today make the discount airlines of yesterday (Tower Air, People's Express, etc..) look like Pan Am...
Air may be the best way to get somewhere - at some times - but that (in the USA) is largely because we have not invested in the right infrastructure.
Also, the "free market" means that we are often not well served...
Here is an example.
Pittsburgh is a major city. So are Hartford, CT and Providence RI.
It used to be that two direct flights were available each day for about $99 each way. That would be a very profitable route - since the same $99 would take you to florida and even almost to the west coast.
BUT, US Air and now AA and others have decided to abandon PIT and force people into stops (hub and spoke).
This means a flight from Hartford to PIT is now $350 to $400 RT and must go through Wash DC or Philly.
Driving is 9 hours. Train or Bus is near impossible.
And so, we flew there to see some family. On the return trip we sat on the Tarmac in PIT for 90 minutes because the skies over the east coast were too full (again the result of lack of fast trains and other methods). We finally made it to Philadelphia (the stop) too late for the connection. No worries - there was another flight later. Oh..cancelled. In fact, they canceled every flight headed to New England from 2PM to the end of the night. We even tried to go into other airports!
And do, I rented a car and drove another 5 hours up to New England, arriving after a total of 17 hours from when I left my hotel room.
That was, of course, in addition to breathing the kerosene and all the other benefits of modern air travel.
We should be ashamed of ourselves in this country! At the minimum, government should require airlines to serve routes which have good traffic and were traditionally served. Now, proponents of our system might say "well, airlines WILL do this if there is demand". This is not true. Look at Southwest and JetBlue. Southwest made their name in these types of flights....$69 each way from cities a couple hundred miles apart. But they have only a limited number of planes and employees and now prefer longer routes.
JetBlue also served many markets at decent prices with good benefits (free bags). No longer.
I think we are choking our own commerce with this. I've seen destinations (Hilton Head, for example) build up well due to good air connections...and then they are dropped (or $$) and the whole market suffers.
A bit of consistency - for the populace to be able to predictably go places - would be nice. Heck, they have it in China, Japan and Europe. I guess we are a "2nd world country".
Quote:
Originally Posted by middle-aged mom
Deregulation of airlines compelled airlines to compete for business. Obviously, carriers determined that n/s flights from some spokes were unprofitable. Should the federal government fund something as discretionary as air travel, as it once did?
I will agree with you that Pittsburgh is a major city, but there is no way that one can call Hartford, CT or Providence, RI major cities. You say that the two flights for $99 each way were profitable; how do you know they were profitable? Many routes are not profitable because of a low load factor. A friend of mine recently flew from Boston to Allentown, PA and he was the only passenger on the plane. I flew back from Amsterdam to NYC during the Great Recession in 2008 and there were no more than 20 passengers in that big jet.
As middle-aged mom states above, the government allowed the free market to take over in the airline industry, and thank God for that. No longer does the federal government spend several hundred million dollars a year to keep empty flights running so that it will be easier to see grandma at Thanksgiving.
There has been a dramatic change in the past 5 or so years. There are fewer flights and they are more packed. Seat space has been reduced to the point where i am twisted into a painful yoga position for 1 - 5 hours. i have long legs and as I age, I tend to get stiff easily. Tucking my 36" legs into what appears to be about 5" of space is a problem every time. Sometimes when I get out of the seat, I can hardly walk. Every few years the seating space gets tighter and tighter. Some airlines give you middle seats and upcharge for aisle or end seat then upcharge again for exit row seats, and once again for seats that have the leg room planes had only a few years ago. The upcharges are priced just above what seem s to be practical (i.e. $30 - $60 for a one hour flight and well over $100 for longer flights.) This is especially expensive if you have a connection because they charge you for each leg of the flight. You can also use up all your FF miles to get an inch or two of more space, but that is really no less painful, so it is not worth it. In the regularly priced seats, it the person in front of me tips their seat back they are smashing my knees painfully. There is nothing I can do but argue with them about putting their seat back up or sit in pain and have my legs completely numb when we arrive.
To make matters worse, the general population seem to be getting fatter each year. The number of totally obese people who cannot keep their rolls contained in a single seat has increased to the point where you end up with at least one such neighbor for at least one leg of pretty much every flight. I feel sorry for them, it must be embarrassing to have to lift up a roll or two to allow your neighbor to sit down, then they release the roll(s) and bury you underneath. Hot and unpleasant.
More and more often, I find things missing or broken on the flights. That used to never happen.
For a time the workers got less and less friendly and even became surly on some airlines, however it varied from flight to flight. Lately they seem to be getting somewhat more pleasant. Often they will apologize for the conditions and try to get you into a better seat.
Flying used to be fun and exciting and you do not have to go all the way back to the 1970s. It was relatively pleasant as recently as 2007. Now, I would rather travel by being dragged behind a team of horses with diarrhea. I dread every flight I have to take, and when practical I will drive 4-5 hours rather than flying since flying even for a one hour flight now takes close to 5 hours all said and done. Why pay more to be miserable and arrive in pain? Driving at least is still fun.
Aside from a few brief periods airline industry of the USA has rarely been profitable since deregulation. Right now between record low oil prices (which have helped but also hurt as some airlines placed bad hedge bets), lack of competition and a few other factors most USA carriers are showing *some* profit ATM, but that varies by airline and can change.
US carriers are making money now by putting the squeeze on passengers. Nearly every GD thing that once was free has a fee attached. Frequent flyer wanting that free upgrade into First Class? Forget it happening unless you "bid" or otherwise pay.
Loyalty programs are becoming more and more of a joke as either the amount of points required is insane.
Many carriers today make the discount airlines of yesterday (Tower Air, People's Express, etc..) look like Pan Am...
All in cost of flying even with everything coming with an additional fee are still cheaper than they were 30 years ago so I'm not really sure what the issue is.
There has been a dramatic change in the past 5 or so years. There are fewer flights and they are more packed. Seat space has been reduced to the point where i am twisted into a painful yoga position for 1 - 5 hours. i have long legs and as I age, I tend to get stiff easily. Tucking my 36" legs into what appears to be about 5" of space is a problem every time. Sometimes when I get out of the seat, I can hardly walk. Every few years the seating space gets tighter and tighter. Some airlines give you middle seats and upcharge for aisle or end seat then upcharge again for exit row seats, and once again for seats that have the leg room planes had only a few years ago. The upcharges are priced just above what seem s to be practical (i.e. $30 - $60 for a one hour flight and well over $100 for longer flights.) This is especially expensive if you have a connection because they charge you for each leg of the flight. You can also use up all your FF miles to get an inch or two of more space, but that is really no less painful, so it is not worth it. In the regularly priced seats, it the person in front of me tips their seat back they are smashing my knees painfully. There is nothing I can do but argue with them about putting their seat back up or sit in pain and have my legs completely numb when we arrive.
To make matters worse, the general population seem to be getting fatter each year. The number of totally obese people who cannot keep their rolls contained in a single seat has increased to the point where you end up with at least one such neighbor for at least one leg of pretty much every flight. I feel sorry for them, it must be embarrassing to have to lift up a roll or two to allow your neighbor to sit down, then they release the roll(s) and bury you underneath. Hot and unpleasant.
More and more often, I find things missing or broken on the flights. That used to never happen.
For a time the workers got less and less friendly and even became surly on some airlines, however it varied from flight to flight. Lately they seem to be getting somewhat more pleasant. Often they will apologize for the conditions and try to get you into a better seat.
Flying used to be fun and exciting and you do not have to go all the way back to the 1970s. It was relatively pleasant as recently as 2007. Now, I would rather travel by being dragged behind a team of horses with diarrhea. I dread every flight I have to take, and when practical I will drive 4-5 hours rather than flying since flying even for a one hour flight now takes close to 5 hours all said and done. Why pay more to be miserable and arrive in pain? Driving at least is still fun.
Painful yoga poses? Come on this thread has brought out the drama queens. I'm 6'2'' and there are no painful yoga moves going on simply to sit in your seat. If you can barely walk after being seated for a while maybe you should no longer fly and see a doctor because that too isn't normal. Flying back in the 70s when it was so exciting was more expensive too. So instead of complaining about your lack of room buy a first class ticket, spend less than you would 40 years ago inflation adjusted and have a better experiance
In the 1930s-1970s air travel was a glamorous experience. You had plenty of leg room, free alcoholic drinks, attractive stewardesses in pleasing uniforms, hassle free boarding experiences, deluxe luxurious accommodations, steak and lobster meals, and comfortable seating.
Since the 80s the industry has consisted of sardine can-like seating, hellish boarding procedures with cavity searches, free peanuts if you're lucky, and frumpy airline staff who look and act like they escaped from a prison chain gang.
It makes me sick.
Yup.... Everything thats happend in our world since the 80s makes me sick also!!!
All in cost of flying even with everything coming with an additional fee are still cheaper than they were 30 years ago so I'm not really sure what the issue is.
The issue is that business-travelers are 100% reimbursed by their employers for the ticket-price, but 0% reimbursed or any extras/upgrades. So if an all-inclusive ticket costs $1500, the traveler is still going to travel – and enjoy perks. If the ticket is $300 but everything costs an extra increment, the traveler will enjoy none of those incremental "benefits" – or will have to pay for them out of pocket. Also, for frequent fliers, the likelihood of getting a first-class upgrade is proportional to the ticket price. So again, the more expensive the ticket, the more that benefits the business-traveler personally.
My employer's travel budget is elastic, to put it mildly; but it is punctiliously legalistic. I must choose the cheapest airfare between my home-airport and the destination-airport, without choice of airlines. But if even the cheapest ticket happens to be enormously expensive, my travel still gets approved. The restriction is levied on unseemly and profligate "perks" (like trying to get reimbursed for a $5 in-cabin snack), and not for overpaying $2000 for the airfare (because the contract-negotiated airfare between those city pairs happens to be enormously more expensive than retail fares available to the general public).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowexpectations
...Flying back in the 70s when it was so exciting was more expensive too. So instead of complaining about your lack of room buy a first class ticket, spend less than you would 40 years ago inflation adjusted and have a better experiance
That's great for leisure travelers; not so much for business-travelers who cross the Atlantic several times a year, maybe the Pacific once a year, and US coast-to-coast a half-dozen times a year. Yeah, that's >100K miles/year, if concentrated on one airline. But even then, see a posting above regarding upgrade-rules. As recently as 2010 or so, I could get either a free upgrade across the Atlantic, or cash-in 10,000 miles. Now it's several hundred dollars out of pocket, in addition to miles.
In the 1930s-1970s air travel was a glamorous experience. You had plenty of leg room, free alcoholic drinks, attractive stewardesses in pleasing uniforms, hassle free boarding experiences, deluxe luxurious accommodations, steak and lobster meals, and comfortable seating.
Since the 80s the industry has consisted of sardine can-like seating, hellish boarding procedures with cavity searches, free peanuts if you're lucky, and frumpy airline staff who look and act like they escaped from a prison chain gang.
It makes me sick.
Show my ID, seat pass, and walk through a metal detector, hardly hellish and I've never experienced a cavity search (other than my doc performing a routine colonoscopy). But, considering the potential of someone hijacking the plane, after it's too late to do anything about it, I can deal with the inconveniences of the TSA while we're still on the ground.
The issue is that business-travelers are 100% reimbursed by their employers for the ticket-price, but 0% reimbursed or any extras/upgrades. So if an all-inclusive ticket costs $1500, the traveler is still going to travel – and enjoy perks. If the ticket is $300 but everything costs an extra increment, the traveler will enjoy none of those incremental "benefits" – or will have to pay for them out of pocket. Also, for frequent fliers, the likelihood of getting a first-class upgrade is proportional to the ticket price. So again, the more expensive the ticket, the more that benefits the business-traveler personally.
My employer's travel budget is elastic, to put it mildly; but it is punctiliously legalistic. I must choose the cheapest airfare between my home-airport and the destination-airport, without choice of airlines. But if even the cheapest ticket happens to be enormously expensive, my travel still gets approved. The restriction is levied on unseemly and profligate "perks" (like trying to get reimbursed for a $5 in-cabin snack), and not for overpaying $2000 for the airfare (because the contract-negotiated airfare between those city pairs happens to be enormously more expensive than retail fares available to the general public).
That's great for leisure travelers; not so much for business-travelers who cross the Atlantic several times a year, maybe the Pacific once a year, and US coast-to-coast a half-dozen times a year. Yeah, that's >100K miles/year, if concentrated on one airline. But even then, see a posting above regarding upgrade-rules. As recently as 2010 or so, I could get either a free upgrade across the Atlantic, or cash-in 10,000 miles. Now it's several hundred dollars out of pocket, in addition to miles.
Well I'm glad you can speak for all companies and their reimbursement policies, you would be wrong though because business can and do allow for the expensing of items outside of ticket cost. Maybe not yours but that's more of a you problem and wholly is not applicable to leisure travel either
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