What happened? Why did air travel go from a glamorous experience to nearly hellish? (jet, commercial)

[Ian_Lee]

Why has the domestic air travel deteriorated so much over the years?

Because lack of competition. Now the industry is dominated by the big 3 plus Jetblue + Southwest + some small budget airlines. That is it.

The Sky should be opened. We should open the 5th Freedom of Air and let foreign airlines to come in to compete for business.

And after all, is domestic fare really that cheap?

Last April I boarded the Singapore airline flight from Singapore to Hong Kong. It is a 4-hour flight (about equal time from NYC to Denver). You can pre-select your seat, check one free baggage, and have full meal served. How much did I pay? I bought the ticket 4 weeks in advance and cost me only $198 round trip.

Why is it so cheap? Because there are at least 7-8 airlines flying that route. Indeed United can pick up passengers in Singapore and drop them off in Hong Kong and then continue the trip to U.S. Why shouldn't we let foreign airlines come in, pick up some passengers in a city and then continue their flight to another city?

[survivingearth]

Here is my take. I fly at least once every two weeks and i still find it glamorous. Yes some days and times can be a hassle because of the amount of passengers. 90% of my flying is business and they usually go very smooth, i am able to travel at odd times to avoid the usual business crowd. Having said that whenever i watch old videos it did look like it was a big event. Actually fewer people could afford flying and when they did it really was a special occasion.

[Des-Lab]

Originally Posted by Ian_Lee

Why has the domestic air travel deteriorated so much over the years?

Because lack of competition. Now the industry is dominated by the big 3 plus Jetblue + Southwest + some small budget airlines. That is it.

The Sky should be opened. We should open the 5th Freedom of Air and let foreign airlines to come in to compete for business.

We did up until fairly recently, have quite an assortment of airlines.

There has not been a new airline started here in the US (that I know of) in almost a decade. Virgin America was the last. I don't count Eastern because it's not really a true scheduled airline; it only flies charters to Cuba. I also don't count PEOPLExress either because that was also not a real airline. Instead an outfit that attempted to lease out and repaint the planes from an existing supplemental charter company and call it an airline. So Virgin was and is the last true standing on its own two feet new start. And it's days are numbered since Alaska decided to buy them out.

But anyway. Since Deregulation, there have been dozens upon dozens upon dozens of airlines that started up and tried to provide competition and choice. Pretty much all either shut down or got bought out. Out of all those carriers, only JetBlue, Frontier, Spirit, and Allegiant remain. That's a pretty dismal record. And that's even before we broach the difficulty of actually getting a new airline off the ground. The certification process is so onerous, expensive, and time consuming that is effectively a de facto embargo against any new start airlines taking flight. Part of this is because of ValuJet #592 from 1996, 9/11, and I'm pretty sure that some of these impediments are in place courtesy of the existing Majors (think: auto franchise protections). Look at the now defunct California Pacific Airlines. They had all their ducks in a row and still couldn't commence operation. So between the virtually assured 100% failure rate of investing in a new airline and the all-but-impossible to surmount bureaucracy one has to navigate, is it any wonder no one is interested in investing in or launching a new airline anymore? Too much financial risk. Too much hassle and headache.

Let's not forget that we also used to have a lot more majors too.

Eastern, Pan Am, TWA, Northwest, Continental, US Airways, etc.

Some went under because they were too sick to survive. The rest all merged in a panicked knee-jerk reaction to pool resources and yes, eliminate competition and drive up prices.

Indeed I expect to still see MORE mergers in the next several years. Everyone is expecting Frontier and Spirit to join up at some point. Only a matter of time. I would also think that Allegiant and Sun Country make a good fit.

Alaska will prove to have bitten off more than it can chew with Virgin.

The combined company will be picked up by Jet Blue.

-Which in turn will be swallowed by American.

Delta and United will eventually merge.

As will the combined Spirit and Allegiant.

Hawaiian? That's anyone's guess. I can see it going either way where one of the majors snaps them up. Or leaves them alone to eke out their business on one of the lowest yield markets in the world. They might just quietly fizzle out the way Aloha did.

How's THAT for an ologopolistic market? I'm banking on that scenario or one like it being the future (four airlines consisting of two majors, an a-la carte LCC, and Southwest effectively controlling 100% of the US air travel market). And no. I don't think that the DOT or DOJ really have the power to really stop any merger. They can try. And believe me. They have. But to date have not successfully stopped any merger proposal that wasn't already mutually called of by the participants. Back in 2000, they did try to stop the then proposed United/USAirways merger. But that transaction ended up collapsing on its own because the two could not come to terms. They really, really wanted to kibash American/US Airways. But failed there too.

In the end, any merger that gets proposed will eventually be consummated after their cherished baby (Southwest) gets thrown a few slots at space constrained airports and the right officials receive "campaign contributions". That's the way it works.

[Ian_Lee]

Des-Lab:

I am referring to foreign competition, not home-grown small airlines.

What about letting Emirates flights fly in from Dubai to JFK, pick up some passengers there and continue flying to SFO?

Or letting Singapore Airline flights flying in from Singapore to LAX, pick up some passengers and then fly to EWR?

Then that is real competition. But most U.S.-based airlines are non-competitive. They will try their best to fight this scenario.

[Des-Lab]

Originally Posted by Ian_Lee

Des-Lab:

I am referring to foreign competition, not home-grown small airlines.

I thought that choice was choice was choice.

Originally Posted by Ian_Lee

What about letting Emirates flights fly in from Dubai to JFK, pick up some passengers there and continue flying to SFO?

Or letting Singapore Airline flights flying in from Singapore to LAX, pick up some passengers and then fly to EWR?

Then that is real competition. But most U.S.-based airlines are non-competitive. They will try their best to fight this scenario.

You are absolutely correct. Good ol' boy protectionist politics, xenophobia, and nationalism will prevent anything like you describe from happening for the foreseeable future. Any politician that suggests it knows he will be committing career suicide.

[Ian_Lee]

Originally Posted by Des-Lab

I thought that choice was choice was choice.



You are absolutely correct. Good ol' boy protectionist politics, xenophobia, and nationalism will prevent anything like you describe from happening for the foreseeable future. Any politician that suggests it knows he will be committing career suicide.

I agree. If time could go back, I guess the Big 3 in Detroit would fight to the death to ban introduction of cars made in Japan in early '70s.

[Obrienlester]

Originally Posted by Ellwood

Used to fly 75K miles a year for business and more for vacations. Tired of cancelled flights (for no reason), cardboard seats, long lines, incompetent customer service and lack of helpfulness, especially for people who are handicapped. No more flying for us. We take the motorhome now.

Were you at DFW last night?


There were a whole bunch of Delayed/cancelled flights due to the "Weather". It was only slight rain, but we tend to overdue it because of how unpredictable our weather patterns can be.

[BugsyPal]

Originally Posted by Obrienlester

Were you at DFW last night?


There were a whole bunch of Delayed/cancelled flights due to the "Weather". It was only slight rain, but we tend to overdue it because of how unpredictable our weather patterns can be.

Correct me if am wrong but IIRC all those "weather" cancellations are in reaction to consumer *protection* laws and rules laid down by the federal government regarding tarmac delays.

[Larry Siegel]

Originally Posted by ohio_peasant

Business travelers are perhaps the most squeezed group. Their employers won't fund upmarket tickets, but they fly sufficiently frequently as to really feel the sting of incommodious treatment in coach-class. Until recently, free upgrades were quite common for "elite" frequent-flyers. But this has become increasingly less common.

From my perspective – that of a frequent-flyer business-traveler – the most onerous recent development has been airlines' increased stinginess with upgrades. That at least is the principal complaint that I wish to register in this thread. There, I feel better already!

Upgrades have become more scarce because the airlines have figured out they can fill first class with paying customers by discounting the first class tickets. So just pay the difference between economy-plus (which employers will usually pay for) and first class domestic with your own damn money. I do it all the time. If it sounds like an extravagance, how much do you spend on golf? How much do you spend on luxury cars? It is worth the extra cash to get a comfortable seat.

[Obrienlester]

Originally Posted by BugsyPal

Correct me if am wrong but IIRC all those "weather" cancellations are in reaction to consumer *protection* laws and rules laid down by the federal government regarding tarmac delays.

Not sure what point your trying to make. Whenever we spot lightning within 10 miles of our Airport, we shut everything down. Planes stay on the Tarmac, and baggage claims go off. In North Texas we can go from sunny weather to Rain, hail, lightning, along with Tornadoes. Safety always come 1st in Aviation, customer service will always come 2nd to it. Believe me, Airlines want their Aircraft to take off on-time. Anytime a plane stays on the ground they're losing money.