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Old 08-28-2017, 04:02 AM
 
Location: Spaniard living in Slovakia
853 posts, read 648,447 times
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So, Boeing 747 (four engine jetliner) is about to be phased out because of high fuel comsumption. The trend is to release new twin-engine jetliners (Boeing 787, Airbus A350). Then, what's the point of Airbus A380? If even most of long haul jetliners are twin-engine since Airbus A330 and Boeing 777 became so popular, what's then the point to release Airbus A380, a four-engine airliner?
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Old 08-28-2017, 04:08 AM
 
Location: Beautiful Pennsylvania / Dull Germany
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A380 is just too big to be powered by 2 engines. Fan diameter must be gigantic.

Plus, the design of an A380 is around 15 years old while A350/787 are much newer.
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Old 08-28-2017, 10:42 AM
 
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I wonder if the OP knows just how big an A-380 is. Double decks, can hold up to 600 seats, IIRC. No engine has been developed that can carry that much weight with only 2 of them on the plane. Suffice to say, that there will probably not be another 4-engine passenger plane developed, at least not in our lifetimes.
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Old 08-28-2017, 10:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorge ChemE View Post
If even most of long haul jetliners are twin-engine since Airbus A330 and Boeing 777 became so popular, what's then the point to release Airbus A380, a four-engine airliner?

The Airbus A300 (first flight 28 October 1972) was a twin engine widebody which was a low cost competitor to the Boeing 747 ( first flight February 9, 1969) . A total of 561 A300s were delivered, but it was severely limited in size and range compared to a B747.

The Airbus A330 (first flight 2 November 1992) was a significant improvement over the A300. The current longest commercial route on an A330 is Buenos Aires to Rome-Fiumicino which is 6,926 statute miles (14 hr 25 min) on Aerolíneas Argentinas. It is only 11% longer than the nonstop route Aerolíneas Argentinas established in August 1967 in a Boeing 707 service between Buenos Aires and Madrid with a flight time of 12 hours. The A330 may eventually surpass the B747 in deliveries.

Airbus developed it's first four engine jet with the Airbus A340 (first flight 25 October 1991) as twin engine jets at the time could not pursue the ultra long range routes.

The number of air passengers was increasing at a very rapid rate from 1970 to 2000, and in particular in 1978 in the US after the airlines were deregulated. In the early 1990's the two manufacturers essentially reversed their fundamental vision. Boeing saw the future as more economical twin engine aircraft while Airbus looked at overcrowded hub airports and felt there would be a market for up to 700 ultra large jets that could only be powered by four engines.

Particularly in the USA, the tragedy of 9-11 followed by the economic turndown that began in 2007 permanently killed the Airbus vision. Airbus was also counting heavily on Japan and China embracing the A380. Japanese airlines have never taken delivery of an A380 although three have since been ordered. China Southern Airlines ordered 5 A380s in 2005, which were delivered in 2011 but the plane fell victim to larger trade disputes between the EU and China.

A Boeing 777-300 can actually carry 550 passengers in a single class configuration, but only Japanese airlines have put 500 seats in their domestic configuration. Although and A380 can carry up to 853 passengers in a single class configuration, the fuel per passenger is much higher than a fully loaded B777-300.

Even though the price of fuel has dropped considerably, and passenger loads are increasing again, most analysts feel it is too late for the A380 to recover. Many analysts feel that the A380 simply came a decade to early, and that if the companies had a crystal ball that you could design a four engine aircraft to seat over 800 people and it would be profitable if you used technology that came a decade later. But Airbus has now lost so much money, that they are not inclined to develop a new engine version.

============================
It's important to know that Airbus never dreamed that the A380 would displace the B777 or the A330 or any other twin engine aircraft. They simply believed that there would be a place for it in the fleets of the world to connect the busiest and largest mega hubs.

It's interesting to note that British Airways never considered putting one of the A380's on the London Heathrow to New York JFK route, which is the busiest trans Atlantic route. The competition among businessmen requires the most number of options for times to take off. Instead British Airways uses the A380 on routes where it normally only flies only a few (or one) plane per day. In these cases the biggest possible plane is the most economical to fly.

British Airways A380 flights destinations from & to London
  1. Boston
  2. Los Angeles
  3. Miami
  4. San Francisco
  5. Washington
  6. Vancouver
  7. Hong Kong
  8. Johannesburg
  9. Singapore

============================
The most successful configuration for the A380 has been all premium class in the upper deck and economy in the lower deck. Although this configuration is not the most efficient, it gives premium class passengers an even stronger illusion of exclusivity as they often board from their own deck and they have free run of the deck to go to the lounge and the bar. As such, the sale of business and first class seats has been stronger than on the B777.

Korea and Singapore are the only Asian countries that have adopted the aircraft in large numbers, and, so far, Singapore is returning the aircraft at the end of their initial 10 year lease. Emirates has them on 12 year leases, and has always stated that they have no intention of renewing their leases. Their lease price is high enough that the return to the lease companies after 12 years is satisfactory (if not fantastic).

Last edited by PacoMartin; 08-28-2017 at 12:20 PM..
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Old 08-28-2017, 04:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by transitfan View Post
Suffice to say, that there will probably not be another 4-engine passenger plane developed, at least not in our lifetimes.
It's an interesting question. To some people the world of aviation is going to face the same problems in 2020 that it thought it was going to face in the year 2000. What may change is that it is going to be more politically acceptable to charge by slots at the busiest world airports instead of by weight.

In 2016 there were 3.7 billion air passengers. It wasn't until 1990 that world air passengers broke 1 billion. Now we are likely to see 1 billion passengers in USA airports in a few years.

Many people believe that the 4 engine A380 would have been successful if it had only started development 10 years later and taken advantage of the latest research on materials and engines. The price of fuel has dropped so dramatically, that it may not have been a major consideration.



But of course, that is with the benefit of hindsight.

But it seems highly unlikely that you will ever have a plane with a maximum capacity over the present 500-550 seats with only two engines.
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Old 08-29-2017, 12:41 AM
 
Location: Portland, OR
1,455 posts, read 2,497,755 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Dakota View Post
A380 is just too big to be powered by 2 engines. Fan diameter must be gigantic.

Plus, the design of an A380 is around 15 years old while A350/787 are much newer.
Not really. The A380 development was started in 2000. The 787 in 2003. They had different design goals and hence different designs.
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Old 08-29-2017, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Spaniard living in Slovakia
853 posts, read 648,447 times
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No! I was not saying that why an A380 has 4 engines instead of 2. The point is why Boeing 747 is being phased out because its high fuel consumption and Airbus designed such a big plane with 4 engines, with problems such as high fuel consumption and the difficulty to operate this plane in some airports due to its size. If the trend is to build twin engine planes even for longest routes, why Airbus built A380 instead of a twin engine plane that is the trend nowadays?
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Old 08-29-2017, 11:43 AM
 
Location: Beautiful Pennsylvania / Dull Germany
2,205 posts, read 3,333,156 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorge ChemE View Post
No! I was not saying that why an A380 has 4 engines instead of 2. The point is why Boeing 747 is being phased out because its high fuel consumption and Airbus designed such a big plane with 4 engines, with problems such as high fuel consumption and the difficulty to operate this plane in some airports due to its size. If the trend is to build twin engine planes even for longest routes, why Airbus built A380 instead of a twin engine plane that is the trend nowadays?
The "trend" is not easy to identify. Some people say, the hub and spoke system is the best and most efficient and air transport needs large airplanes to connect major world hubs. Especially Emirates is following that example. Other carriers think it is better to connect point to point traffic. Boeing was rather going towards that direction. Also, the 747 is much older and less efficient than the A380, the number of engines is not the only factor for efficiency. While the 777-300ER can almost carry as many passengers as the 747, the A380 is still one level above in terms of capacity and can not be replaced by any twin engine so far.
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:46 PM
Status: "“If a thing loves, it is infinite.”" (set 2 days ago)
 
Location: Great Britain
27,178 posts, read 13,461,836 times
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The A380 is on the way out.

Airbus to Cut A380 Output Below One a Month If No New Orders - Bloomberg

Airbus is pinning it's hopes on the Airbus A350 XWB.

Airbus A350 XWB vs Boeing 787 Dreamliner: Which new long-haul carrier is best?
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Old 08-29-2017, 02:54 PM
 
14,611 posts, read 17,562,480 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorge ChemE View Post
If the trend is to build twin engine planes even for longest routes, why Airbus built A380 instead of a twin engine plane that is the trend nowadays?
Background

In mid-1988, Airbus engineers began work in secret on the development of an ultra-high-capacity airliner (UHCA) . The megaproject was announced at the 1990 Farnborough Air Show, with the stated goal of 15% lower operating costs than the 747-400.

Boeing 747 peak order year was 122 jets in 1990.

Airbus developed it's first four engine jet with the Airbus A340 (first flight 25 October 1991) as twin engine jets at the time could not pursue the ultra long range routes. The Boeing 777 (first flight June 12, 1994)

The short answer to your question
The initial work on the A380 began three decades ago when this "trend" was not even visible. Four engine aircraft were considered mainstream, while twin engine widebodies were very limited in range and capacity.

There is a lot of inertia behind major industrial projects. The downturn in aviation after 9-11 might have been cause to delay the project. The fiscal crash of 2007 was another reason. But by2007 they were almost ready to deliver their first A380 which went to Singapore Airlines on 15 October 2007.
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