Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I'm in the airline industry but I don't work for Delta or Northwest. I've heard a bit about it as I work with quite a few former Delta people though. I think it'll be a good thing for the two companies as long as it's done right. I know Delta could really use the Asia routes that Northwest has.
My husband is a captain with Usairways.. oh wait.. it is American West.. oh.. before that..USAir.. before that.. Piedmont. It's horrible for him/us with the cuts he has taken, the treatment of the employees, the long hours, (I see him 2 days a week)..retirement taken away in an instant.. and now starting over once again.. horrible management (you don't see them gettin cuts- oh wait.. they get bonuses and multimillion dollars to drive the companies into the ground) not to mention that nobody really wants to run the place. It's all about (their) money. I'm sure Delta-Northwest will have their share of problems as they all look to the other airlines to see what/who was %%@#$.
I think that mergers are necessary in this industry, especially with the rising fuel prices. So I hope the two pilot unions can reach an agreement so this merger can go through.
I think that the fleet will be an interesting mix. I bet they will keep the 747-400s, 777s, A330s,767s, 757s, A320s, DC-9s, and MD-80/90s.
My husband is a captain with Usairways.. oh wait.. it is American West.. oh.. before that..USAir.. before that.. Piedmont. It's horrible for him/us with the cuts he has taken, the treatment of the employees, the long hours, (I see him 2 days a week)..retirement taken away in an instant.. and now starting over once again.. horrible management (you don't see them gettin cuts- oh wait.. they get bonuses and multimillion dollars to drive the companies into the ground) not to mention that nobody really wants to run the place. It's all about (their) money. I'm sure Delta-Northwest will have their share of problems as they all look to the other airlines to see what/who was %%@#$.
Okay.. sorry.. I had to vent.
Ugh - those guys are really taking a beating over there - we in this industry are very aware of how bad they are getting treated. I'm very sorry he, and therefor you also, are going through this. Your post hits home with me - I'm a pilot at an airline who shall remain nameless, and I must admit I wish I never, ever, ever chose this career. It's truly a destructive industry - it destroys finances, morale, ambition, and especially families. I really hate seeing what it does to my wife, and with kids in our very near future I don't think this career is something my heart is in anymore. Reading your post reminds me what an impact it has at home. I know I try very hard to isolate my work life from my family life, but it's damn near impossible as this career is more than a job, it's an all consuming lifestyle. And like you pointed out, it's all too common to work your entire career to get the 'golden egg', only to have inept management flush it away. In a career based on seniority, it's infuriating! I swear to God, it's like they intentionally mismanage these places and try to screw as many employees as possible; anything at any price to keep shareholders happy.
11thhour: Yep.. It's a whole different world that the general public really doesn't understand. I'm thankful though my husband has a job although he is so drained and so tired and I can't help him. The seniorty still has not been meshed for 4 years now. And these CEO's don't care - friction/animosity among the pilots - and no real future of it being resolved that can be seen. Only care about the money - once again theirs not who actually makes the company run. What also the public is not aware of is that most likely you will see maybe 3-4 major carriers as they all are going to have to merge to survive. This is not good for the public either. High prices are going to be the norm. More cuts for airline employees. It's truly sad. I just have a hard time understanding (it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the bad choices the management has made on using these airline execs) their reasoning behind the choices. Even as simple as a route that made money and running full, why the heck do they cancel it? How does that make sense? My poor nephew just got a job with a small commuter as a pilot - God help him...
I enjoy aviation and airliners of all kinds, I don't care for what goes on behind the scenes on the business side of things. I also do agree with JaneCJ about airline executives.
As for the NW and Delta merger... well, it would be interesting to see how this goes. Also, both airlines recently changed their liveries on their aircraft, so it would be interesting to see if they're going to change the colors of their aircraft again if this merger goes through. That is a very costly project I might add.
I don't think they'll keep the 747-4XX (NW has the 451 variant) I think they'll stay with the more efficient 777's, 767's and the A330's for long flights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASpilot2be
I think that mergers are necessary in this industry, especially with the rising fuel prices. So I hope the two pilot unions can reach an agreement so this merger can go through.
I think that the fleet will be an interesting mix. I bet they will keep the 747-400s, 777s, A330s,767s, 757s, A320s, DC-9s, and MD-80/90s.
I can tell you from a Reserve military pilot's perspective that I totally understand where you are coming from and therefore I have resigned myself not to pursue an airline career NOW that I'm still young and don't qualify for a major airline job yet anyways. It is just too taxing on family life, does not have lateral career options like the rest of the rational world out there; the seniority system is your ball and chain, which I still can't grasp because I don't care how great the office view is on the cockpit, it does not overcome the opportunity cost of not being able to dust myself off, go across the street and command a comparable salary commesurate with experience, I just can't accept that choice as a primary bread winner for the better part of the next 30 years. Furthermore, it compensates poorly in the beginning years (to make regional Captain, then back to first officer at a major if you're lucky..no thanks). It's truly not for everybody.
The problem is that most people who pursue airline work do not see themselves doing anything else for a living. The price elasticity of labor is almost infinite. This is why management gets away with what you folks are highlighting. As long as people will continue lining up at regional airlines willing to work for unlivable wages nothing will change and to be realistic I don't think there is a way to suggest to people that it is a toxic condition to live in. There will always be pilots out there that will be insensitive to real world economics. I love flying as much as the next guy, but I can't rationally put myself in that crummy of an economic position because getting my pilot jolly high is more important than having a financially stable plan for my future. Like everything else, life is about opportunity costs, but as a pilot I can state that pilots as a labor force are doomed by their addiction, there is no bargaining power when you're unwilling to walk away. You may decide not to compensate pilots at all, and some people will still line up.
It's turning into a hobby profession, where most people who attempt to use the job as a primary source of income will be greatly dissapointed and the sacrifice will not seem worthwhile. Only those who do not need the income (what a concept) will be able to consider the career worthwhile, and as we know that's a rather comfortable position to be in.
I know for my part I'll continue using public sector (military in my case) as a source of career development and hope for a full-time position where I can gain stable paychecks, a defined pension retirement and health benefits, with interservice pay grade transferability, all the things an airline job does not and will continue to NOT provide me. Otherwise I'll bite the bullet and work a non-flying job and fly part-time and hope to be able to make enough to enjoy general aviation (another tough cookie if you don't make boucoup money), but I won't touch airline work with a 10 foot pole. People can continue to chase the golden carrot that changes every decade (right now it's Southwest, Fedex and UPS...and it will change tomorrow, no way to live out 30 years of employment if you ask me), but I rather make a modest income that doesn't bounce in 30 years and retire on govt cheese without worrying how timmy is going to afford in-state tuition in 20 years. Off the soapbox lol. That said, my heart goes out to the 121 pilots out there chasing the dream, family in tow, I pray for you, but I sure don't envy you, even if you work for brown or purple.
Very good post. I wish when I was younger I had the perspective you have. You also have the advantage of having gone the military route and having uncle sam fund your training. Everything you say is so very, very true. I went into thinking I'd be doing my dream job, turning a hobby into a career. But like you said, it is used against us, because most folks cannot fathom doing anything but flying, and put up with increasingly worsening work conditions and pay simply to stay in the cockpit. I think they forget it's a job, not a hobby! And the problem is those of us who want out have a hell of a time getting a job in the non- aviation world. Airline flying is 90% complex planning and management, 10% flying, yet it's impossible to convince employers outside of aviation of this. They have absolutely zero idea of what his job actually entails. I have periodically interviewed for jobs in the 'outside' world, and I cannot tell you how many times they laughed me out of their interviews thinking I was crazy for leaving a 100K a year job. When I explained that no, I don't even make half that in fact, I'm called a liar. It's to the point that now I bring a paystub in with me!
Just this week I found out I will probably be furloughed before this year is up. I was furloughed after 9/11 also. I do not have it in me to start over in this god-forsaken industry again if this happens, and like I've said, even now I want out so bad! I just wish there weren't so many completely bass-ackwards misconceptions about what we do, and our skill sets, particularly in the management area. Matter of fact, I think of myself as a manager first, pilot second...It is so hard to get out of this job when you've been in for more than a few years. I'll probably end up having to go back to school - and I'm still paying on my debt from flight training from 12 years ago.
I wish you luck on your career plans. It sounds like you have a path in mind with a means to achieve it. Flying is fun, but as only as a hobby. As a job it's a joke and will take over all aspects of your life.
Edit: Just reread your post, and you really hit the nail on the head! It disgusts me how many people I am working with that are new to the industry come from rich families. They don't need the money and have zero motivation to improve working conditions and pay. It truly is becoming a 'hobby profession' as you say. And what you say of no lateral movement opportunities is an epic negative, one I never even thought about until it was too late. We get pigeon-holed into our role as pilot, and it defines who we are. Like I pointed out, it's damn near impossible to overcome that obstacle. I've been personally trying for 5 years now! Once again, a most excellent and insightful post, thanks for taking the time to type it up!
Last edited by 11thHour; 04-26-2008 at 11:23 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
