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Old 04-21-2011, 07:44 AM
 
Location: reservoir hill
226 posts, read 290,778 times
Reputation: 173

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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
??? Genetic evidence shows multiples waves of colonization of the Americas by different groups at different times. When these groups met, some fratanized, some exterminated. With no written record, the details are lost. Not really any different than what happened when the Europeans arrived, some Indians jumped right on board and married in, some fought and died, some fought and survived.

We can't go back tens of thousands of years and "mark" the first guys and gals that crossed the land bridge or paddled over in their canoe as those with "first right" to American soil. The settlement pattern was more complicated than that. It is just as likely today's Hispanics are a later group that committed some ancient genocide on the those with "first right" than it is that they are direct decendants of the those with "first right."
dude your speculating about impossible tasks, we know from history that the native americans whom were here when the europeans arrived had first rights and were slaughtered, enslaved and torture.....my point is this country was built on illegal immigration and continues to be built on it and it will always be this way so long as the rich need cheap labor to exploit

 
Old 04-21-2011, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,564 posts, read 7,634,742 times
Reputation: 2790
My point is you are simplifing a complex historical topic down to high school level thinking. The initial population of the Americas wasn't one group that arrived, multiplied, and waited around for the Europeans. There were multiple migrations, interactions, and yes wars, human sacrifice, and genocide long before the Europeans ever sailed across the Atlantic.

The dichotomy of Native American = hero, European = villian is a very shallow and incorrect way of understanding the situation.

It is also a cultural myth that the Native Americans were all destroyed, enslaved, and wiped out. Many groups remain intact today, many others just blended in with the new people until nobody could tell the difference. Many were treated badly, but I assure you the tortures, abductions, and killing was a two way street.

As for your political point about American economics, you have every right to it, but don't dumb down history as justification for it.
 
Old 04-21-2011, 01:31 PM
 
Location: Rockville, MD
3,548 posts, read 7,393,752 times
Reputation: 1344
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
The dichotomy of Native American = hero, European = villian is a very shallow and incorrect way of understanding the situation.
I don't know that it breaks down quite that simply, but the Europeans did do an exemplary job of treating the native population like ***** once they arrived here.
 
Old 04-21-2011, 03:28 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,564 posts, read 7,634,742 times
Reputation: 2790
William Penn had an excellent relationship with the native population of PA, as did the French that loosely controlled much of North America until the LA purchase. The British even prohibited settlement west of the Alleghenies in the 18th century as a concession to the natives.

There were squabbles since the beginning, but I wouldn't say the tide turned especially against the natives until Andrew Jackson became president and forceably removed the Southern tribes westward, which was an egergious abuse of executive power since the Supreme Court had ruled he had no right to do so. It did get very ugly after that. That was in the 1840s, nearly 350 years after Columbus made "first contact."

Oh, and it wasn't unusual for some groups of the native population to skin their prisoners alive (other natives or Europeans,) or bury them up their necks and wait until crows and insects ate their faces off, so, again "hero" and "villian", respect and disrespect, are meaningly terms in this debate.

Last edited by westsideboy; 04-21-2011 at 04:27 PM..
 
Old 04-22-2011, 07:53 AM
 
Location: reservoir hill
226 posts, read 290,778 times
Reputation: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
William Penn had an excellent relationship with the native population of PA, as did the French that loosely controlled much of North America until the LA purchase. The British even prohibited settlement west of the Alleghenies in the 18th century as a concession to the natives.

There were squabbles since the beginning, but I wouldn't say the tide turned especially against the natives until Andrew Jackson became president and forceably removed the Southern tribes westward, which was an egergious abuse of executive power since the Supreme Court had ruled he had no right to do so. It did get very ugly after that. That was in the 1840s, nearly 350 years after Columbus made "first contact."

Oh, and it wasn't unusual for some groups of the native population to skin their prisoners alive (other natives or Europeans,) or bury them up their necks and wait until crows and insects ate their faces off, so, again "hero" and "villian", respect and disrespect, are meaningly terms in this debate.
actually i never said europeans=villain thats childish and shows your missing the point,i could care less what individual europeans did to help native americans all im saying is that the native peoples whom were here before the europeans were basically killed=genocide and exploited=land grabbing and slavery by the europeans when they arrived, its a simple cause and effect...now these types of things happen throughout history but we are discussing the u.s.
 
Old 04-22-2011, 09:02 AM
 
Location: Rockville, MD
3,548 posts, read 7,393,752 times
Reputation: 1344
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
William Penn had an excellent relationship with the native population of PA, as did the French that loosely controlled much of North America until the LA purchase. The British even prohibited settlement west of the Alleghenies in the 18th century as a concession to the natives.

There were squabbles since the beginning, but I wouldn't say the tide turned especially against the natives until Andrew Jackson became president and forceably removed the Southern tribes westward, which was an egergious abuse of executive power since the Supreme Court had ruled he had no right to do so. It did get very ugly after that. That was in the 1840s, nearly 350 years after Columbus made "first contact."
Without turning this into some kind of historical debate, I would simply encourage you do do a bit of investigation into the treatment of natives by the European settlers. Google "Christopher Columbus" and "smallpox blankets," then proceed from there.
 
Old 04-22-2011, 08:28 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,564 posts, read 7,634,742 times
Reputation: 2790
I would recommend both of you pick any period in time and then compare the actions and behaviors of the inhabitants of each continent towards both their "own" and the "other". Whites enslaved whites as long as they enslaved blacks (Russia didn't abolish serfdom until the 1860s) , Blacks still enslave other blacks to this day, and Native Americans fought among each other long before they were contacted by anyone else.

Europeans get the grief because they had the resources to win the battles that were being fought between and among the different people of the world in the last few hundred years. This wasn't always the case, and won't always be the case in the future. No good guys, no bad guys, just life.

If you think America would be better off full of stone age inhabitants practicing human sacrifice, go for it.

If you think every African Americans would be better off subsistence farming with a digging stick in the Sahel, go for it.

The history of America seems horrible.....until you look at the history of the rest of the world too. You can't blame the boxer who won of brutality and excuse the boxer that lost because he couldn't move quick enough. Humanity all plays the same games. I make no apologies that Europeans ended up as the visionaries and founders of this country. Take them away and what do you have?
 
Old 04-23-2011, 08:52 AM
 
206 posts, read 389,983 times
Reputation: 131
*yawn*

Can you guys start a new thread in politics already and end it here?
 
Old 04-26-2011, 12:57 PM
 
Location: reservoir hill
226 posts, read 290,778 times
Reputation: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
I would recommend both of you pick any period in time and then compare the actions and behaviors of the inhabitants of each continent towards both their "own" and the "other". Whites enslaved whites as long as they enslaved blacks (Russia didn't abolish serfdom until the 1860s) , Blacks still enslave other blacks to this day, and Native Americans fought among each other long before they were contacted by anyone else.

Europeans get the grief because they had the resources to win the battles that were being fought between and among the different people of the world in the last few hundred years. This wasn't always the case, and won't always be the case in the future. No good guys, no bad guys, just life.

If you think America would be better off full of stone age inhabitants practicing human sacrifice, go for it.

If you think every African Americans would be better off subsistence farming with a digging stick in the Sahel, go for it.


The history of America seems horrible.....until you look at the history of the rest of the world too. You can't blame the boxer who won of brutality and excuse the boxer that lost because he couldn't move quick enough. Humanity all plays the same games. I make no apologies that Europeans ended up as the visionaries and founders of this country. Take them away and what do you have?

well i guess if you take them away all i'd have is a few million thriving native americans...and again we are not discussing world history we are discussing american history...so like i said white man come native americans gone, nothing can change that fact, nor are all white people bad bcuz of this...im just stating facts man
 
Old 04-26-2011, 01:04 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,564 posts, read 7,634,742 times
Reputation: 2790
There are still several million Native Americans in this country. Check out the Native American groups in North Carolina, New Mexico, Arizona, Oklahoma, and that is just for starters. If you are interesting in learning more check out the native groups in Canada, Mexico, Central and South America. So your "facts" that "i said white man come native americans gone" is incorrect on its face. Sorry, just the real facts.
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