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Old 03-03-2012, 03:17 PM
 
2,893 posts, read 3,402,312 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenchild08 View Post

When White folks packed up and left, they took all the jobs and prestige with them and relocated to the suburbs. The same thing happened in Detroit and every other ghetto city in America. Blacks moved to the cities from rural areas for a better life only to have White folks hightailing for the fresh newly built suburbs and shutting down factories in the city left and right. As a result, Blacks and Whites have always been largely separate in Baltimore and in Maryland, period.
This is quite misinformed. Jobs didn't go to the suburbs; rather, they disappeared due mainly to mechanization (and later computerization, and off-shoring). Racism had nothing to do with this. Galbraith saw the situation developing in the 1960s (see "The Affluent Society"). Many, many working-class whites were brutalized by the same loss of jobs (see, for example, part II of Charles Murray's new book "Coming Apart" for a check on the well being of the white working class).

I have my own anecdote -- my white family left the Poplar Grove / Harlem Avenue area of Baltimore in the 1950s when Blacks moved in. The reason was that our new nextdoor neighbor killed her husband by slitting his throat with a kitchen knife. For some reason, my parents didn't want to live there any more, and moved to the suburbs. People like our new neighbors became "The Wire" element. But we didn't take any jobs with us, however, as we were just working people ourselves. You might also look into the meaning of the word "blockbuster," the MO of such people as they worked-over Baltimore row-house neighborhoods, and perhaps their predominant ethnic background.
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Old 03-03-2012, 09:49 PM
 
Location: The Bay and Maryland
1,362 posts, read 3,083,085 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamish Forbes View Post
This is quite misinformed. Jobs didn't go to the suburbs; rather, they disappeared due mainly to mechanization (and later computerization, and off-shoring). Racism had nothing to do with this. Galbraith saw the situation developing in the 1960s (see "The Affluent Society"). Many, many working-class whites were brutalized by the same loss of jobs (see, for example, part II of Charles Murray's new book "Coming Apart" for a check on the well being of the white working class).

I have my own anecdote -- my white family left the Poplar Grove / Harlem Avenue area of Baltimore in the 1950s when Blacks moved in. The reason was that our new nextdoor neighbor killed her husband by slitting his throat with a kitchen knife. For some reason, my parents didn't want to live there any more, and moved to the suburbs. People like our new neighbors became "The Wire" element. But we didn't take any jobs with us, however, as we were just working people ourselves. You might also look into the meaning of the word "blockbuster," the MO of such people as they worked-over Baltimore row-house neighborhoods, and perhaps their predominant ethnic background.
But White people did take jobs away from the inner city because affluent White people owned the factories that got shut down. Yes, thousands of manufacturing jobs were offshored, and you bet an American White guy got payed doing that. And White flight in every city in America was a direct result of racism. Ever heard the phrase "There goes the neighborhood"? That is what White people said when a Black person moved into an all-White neighborhood in the city. Before almost every inner city ghetto in America was occupied by primarily Black folks, those same neighborhoods and houses were occupied by working/middle class White people. This is the case from Baltimore to Detroit to Compton. White folks left these cities in droves when Black people started moving in for a better life.

Blacks in the inner city got left behind when America de-industrialized. This is the reason why every inner city in America is rife with crime because people are forced to make money outside of the system. Most high paid White collar degree snobs in the wealthy DC/Baltimore suburbs don't really produce anything of absolute necessary value. The world would continue to keep spinning without overpaid paper pushers. However, we need farmers and truck drivers to continue eating, but that is another thread altogether.

Last edited by goldenchild08; 03-03-2012 at 10:01 PM..
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Old 03-04-2012, 08:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by goldenchild08 View Post
And White flight in every city in America was a direct result of racism. Ever heard the phrase "There goes the neighborhood"? That is what White people said when a Black person moved into an all-White neighborhood in the city.
This is, of course, a sensitive and complex subject. I don't mean to be hostile to you (or to anyone else reading the thread), but you might want to consider the point of view of someone who actually lived through this as it developed in Baltimore in the 1950s and 1960s. The main reason that whites left these neighborhoods was their aversion to the onslaught of crime, illegitimate children, broken families, litter, drug traffic, and devastated schools that accompanied the change. One of my elderly cousins (white) tried to stay put. He was beaten nearly to death in his own home by a small gang of black teenage thugs. I don't know if you're aware of any of this kind of thing or not. Did you actually live in Baltimore in the 1950s-1960s? The final straw was probably the anarchy and arson of the late 1960s, during which a substantial part of the inner city was burned down and looted by its own residents. Not a pretty picture. But to blame all of this on white racism is a bit too much.
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Old 03-04-2012, 08:49 AM
 
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One more comment -- anyone who wants to understand what happened in Baltimore would likely be interested in the activities of a gentleman named "Morris Goldseker." In my opinion, he, more than any other individual, made Baltimore City what it is today.
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Old 03-04-2012, 08:59 AM
 
Location: moving again
4,383 posts, read 15,043,479 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenchild08 View Post

Most high paid White collar degree snobs in the wealthy DC/Baltimore suburbs don't really produce anything of absolute necessary value. The world would continue to keep spinning without overpaid paper pushers. However, we need farmers and truck drivers to continue eating, but that is another thread altogether.
Don't you love that? If you make money, you're a snob. If you are a blue collar worker, you have a heart of gold. True 100% of the time, I'm certain.
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:00 AM
 
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I would add that MOST African Americans probably want the same things as MOST white people want when moving into a neighborhood.(ex..good schools, low crime, nice quality of life etc) I would agree.. particuliarly using a 1950s - 1980s lens that many white people left the City for the suburbs based on fear or all the urban ills that we have come to categorize of "the city". There are a couple of things to consider though...

1) Many white neighborhoods were in decline BEFORE African Americans moved in.. How so? Look at the age of the housing stock.. Homes built in the 1920s and 1930s were almost 30 to 50 years old by the time "white flight" began.. How many of the children of those neighborhoods would CHOOSE to live in the neighborhood they grew up in ? By the time the 50s rolled around many were opting to leave because of College, the Military (VA Loans, GI Bill), Job Opportunities for them to move elsewhere whichs is perfectly natural. Who was left to buy those aging homes when their parents died? How many of those now adult kids wanted to live in a row house versus the new "ramblers" with a carport, a split level home, a two story with or attached garage and a yard that were going up in "subdivisions" and "newtowns" being built in the suburbs.. versus their old haunts.. In other words you have life style choices and changes that impacted "white flight" not JUST say racial issues.

2) Many African Americans saw an opportunity to move into a "better" neighborhood to take advantage of the same things that most white people wanted (ex nice home, safe community, good schools etc) So, since the children that grew up in some of these neighborhoods had moved on..and other whites were avoiding the areas...These neighborhoods became the next level of affordable housing for African Americans wanting to say "move up" and achieve what is/was "desirable" which why these neighborhoods were originally settled by whites in the first place. Then of course the neighborhood was labelled as a 'black neighborhood' and from a real estate perception standpoint..some have argued that once a neighborhood gets that label it becomes harder to sell.. Some whites may avoid it because of what they feel are cultural differences.. others may be concerned about resale.. since if the perception is that ONLY AA will buy in a progressively AA neighborhood then you are limited in your customer based versus a mostly white neighborhood where you can appeal to whites, AA, and other ethnic groups. Whether real or perceived.. what is often believed becomes the new reality.

3) As homes owned by whites were being sold homes to African Americans... you had white collar AA families moving in initially.. then blue collar AA families....Then depending on the neighborhood.. but those numbers slowed or even stopped (since as we know ...eventually neighborhoods became desegregated by law and now many AA incomes were increasing because of the opening more opportunities through college education and in the workplace.) Many more upwardly mobile AA bypassed the wagon trains to these older white neighborhoods or chose to move out of them and were able to "catch up" (figuratively and literally) with their white peers who were of similiar income and education in the suburbs. The homes in the former white neighborhoods continued to age. The incomes of AA living in these neighborhoods eventually fell as the manufacturing age came screeching hault. Now with no new skills or money to maintain the homes....the quality of life fell along with the quality of the housing stock.

4) Then finally, you have an interesting dicotomy. Lower Income, Unemployed, and Criminal Element (Note: I am not lumping all of these categories into the same boat each can be separate and distinct) of the African American population following the same wagon train as their white collar and blue collar bretheren before them.. and joining the same neighborhoods. Housing valuses have continue to decline so now some of the homes are purchased by new residents others...are rented. Many of these rentals in some of these areas are now owned by slum lords or very absentee landlords some of whom do little maintenance due to the low value of the property. At the same time.. Many AA with various means higher incomes can CHOOSE to live in areas that are predominately white or even predominately AA with AA families of similiar means in neighborhoods that are comparable to their white counterparts that are of the same incomes..leaving behind their former old neighborhoods in a similiar way as their white counterparts did.. and for some of the same reasons ( lifestyle choice, crime, housing type, location, schools, jobs etc) Many lower income residents can now move into new affordable housing development in the suburbs or purchase homes in new communities via various government programs or through private entities.

I am not saying that each and every neighborhood in Baltimore or the USA followed this linear process of change.. Some could have gone from being predominately white and middle to lower income straight to a cesspool of crime and blight without even experiencing the benefit of adding the white collar or blue collar AA family as outlined above. But, in this example.. that form of rapid decline was because..no other population was there to move in because those who were likely to move in.. following the pattern outlined above.. found alternative neighborhoods to live as more and more options opened up.

Using Baltimore as an example, the irony now is that you probably have more whites moving into Baltimore than African Americans.. as a new generation of City Dwellers find interest in parts of the City that are being renewed or long abandon. This is probably more true with white empty nesters or young white families (maybe mostly childless). AA of similiar demographics and incomes are still likely choosing the suburbs over the City.

Last edited by Woodlands; 03-05-2012 at 11:27 AM..
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Old 03-05-2012, 12:42 PM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
6,473 posts, read 10,735,339 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodlands View Post
I would add that MOST African Americans probably want the same things as MOST white people want when moving into a neighborhood.(ex..good schools, low crime, nice quality of life etc) I would agree.. particuliarly using a 1950s - 1980s lens that many white people left the City for the suburbs based on fear or all the urban ills that we have come to categorize of "the city". There are a couple of things to consider though...

1) Many white neighborhoods were in decline BEFORE African Americans moved in.. How so? Look at the age of the housing stock.. Homes built in the 1920s and 1930s were almost 30 to 50 years old by the time "white flight" began.. How many of the children of those neighborhoods would CHOOSE to live in the neighborhood they grew up in ? By the time the 50s rolled around many were opting to leave because of College, the Military (VA Loans, GI Bill), Job Opportunities for them to move elsewhere whichs is perfectly natural. Who was left to buy those aging homes when their parents died? How many of those now adult kids wanted to live in a row house versus the new "ramblers" with a carport, a split level home, a two story with or attached garage and a yard that were going up in "subdivisions" and "newtowns" being built in the suburbs.. versus their old haunts.. In other words you have life style choices and changes that impacted "white flight" not JUST say racial issues.

2) Many African Americans saw an opportunity to move into a "better" neighborhood to take advantage of the same things that most white people wanted (ex nice home, safe community, good schools etc) So, since the children that grew up in some of these neighborhoods had moved on..and other whites were avoiding the areas...These neighborhoods became the next level of affordable housing for African Americans wanting to say "move up" and achieve what is/was "desirable" which why these neighborhoods were originally settled by whites in the first place. Then of course the neighborhood was labelled as a 'black neighborhood' and from a real estate perception standpoint..some have argued that once a neighborhood gets that label it becomes harder to sell.. Some whites may avoid it because of what they feel are cultural differences.. others may be concerned about resale.. since if the perception is that ONLY AA will buy in a progressively AA neighborhood then you are limited in your customer based versus a mostly white neighborhood where you can appeal to whites, AA, and other ethnic groups. Whether real or perceived.. what is often believed becomes the new reality.

3) As homes owned by whites were being sold homes to African Americans... you had white collar AA families moving in initially.. then blue collar AA families....Then depending on the neighborhood.. but those numbers slowed or even stopped (since as we know ...eventually neighborhoods became desegregated by law and now many AA incomes were increasing because of the opening more opportunities through college education and in the workplace.) Many more upwardly mobile AA bypassed the wagon trains to these older white neighborhoods or chose to move out of them and were able to "catch up" (figuratively and literally) with their white peers who were of similiar income and education in the suburbs. The homes in the former white neighborhoods continued to age. The incomes of AA living in these neighborhoods eventually fell as the manufacturing age came screeching hault. Now with no new skills or money to maintain the homes....the quality of life fell along with the quality of the housing stock.

4) Then finally, you have an interesting dicotomy. Lower Income, Unemployed, and Criminal Element (Note: I am not lumping all of these categories into the same boat each can be separate and distinct) of the African American population following the same wagon train as their white collar and blue collar bretheren before them.. and joining the same neighborhoods. Housing valuses have continue to decline so now some of the homes are purchased by new residents others...are rented. Many of these rentals in some of these areas are now owned by slum lords or very absentee landlords some of whom do little maintenance due to the low value of the property. At the same time.. Many AA with various means higher incomes can CHOOSE to live in areas that are predominately white or even predominately AA with AA families of similiar means in neighborhoods that are comparable to their white counterparts that are of the same incomes..leaving behind their former old neighborhoods in a similiar way as their white counterparts did.. and for some of the same reasons ( lifestyle choice, crime, housing type, location, schools, jobs etc) Many lower income residents can now move into new affordable housing development in the suburbs or purchase homes in new communities via various government programs or through private entities.

I am not saying that each and every neighborhood in Baltimore or the USA followed this linear process of change.. Some could have gone from being predominately white and middle to lower income straight to a cesspool of crime and blight without even experiencing the benefit of adding the white collar or blue collar AA family as outlined above. But, in this example.. that form of rapid decline was because..no other population was there to move in because those who were likely to move in.. following the pattern outlined above.. found alternative neighborhoods to live as more and more options opened up.

Using Baltimore as an example, the irony now is that you probably have more whites moving into Baltimore than African Americans.. as a new generation of City Dwellers find interest in parts of the City that are being renewed or long abandon. This is probably more true with white empty nesters or young white families (maybe mostly childless). AA of similiar demographics and incomes are still likely choosing the suburbs over the City.
^ this is the most accurate answer
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Old 03-05-2012, 03:10 PM
 
5,736 posts, read 8,809,886 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HandsUpThumbsDown View Post
^ this is the most accurate answer

Most of what I wrote has been document by several well know Baltimore Authors on the subject...so, in full disclosure...they have influenced and underscored my thoughts on the matter. The rest is from my own life experiences and intereaction with friends and colleagues.

Whats interesting now in terms of segregation is that it appears to be based now mainly on economics or self segregation. Self Segregation is not a slam on any one race or group or another.. It quite often exists in many minority communities. Many Latinos, Asians, West Indians and other ethnic groups choose to live in neighborhoods dominated by their own group. While in the past it may have been out of necessity or safety due to racism.. Now its more a matter of community, connection to ones home country, and sometimes economics in terms of if I am selling jerk chicken.. my largest customer base may be those that grew up eating it.. Therefore I want my store in the middle of that market which may be a neighborhood dominated by that population. Social groups, places of worship and the like soon follow.

For AA, some people have called it the "Atlanta Effect" or event "PG Effect" depending on what section of the Country you are from. Many AA that can afford to live in very expensive or exclusive communities choose ones dominated by other AA of similiar economic means though they can certainly afford comparable homes in predominately white neighborhoods.

Its interesting that some people would argue that AA or other groups making this type of decision is OK but if a white person uses the same philosophy and makes a similiar decision that they are 'racist'. The reasoning behind the difference some may argue is because one group may have had the options of choosing where they wanted to live and made decisions accordingly the other may have been subjected to steering, redlining, restrictive race based convenants, bussing or even cross burning, and thus was more restricted.. Though these types of behaviors are uncommon today.. Many people can recall a story or event where such things have taken place..Therefore; it is often taboo or even very un PC for someone to say " I want to move to all white neighborhood" unless the person saying it is non white...or if someone is prevented from moving into what is considered an "all white neighborhood" because they are non white. Fair Housing Laws have been put in place to reduce that if it can be proven. The irony here is that many whites are now often seeking out more diverse communities or atleast discounting being the majority in a minority community. Things like cost of housing, commuting, and style of home (historic charm, rowhome, craftsman etc) have begun to attract whites into neighborhoods that were once considered questionable or that is dominated by a AA or another minority group. Though "white resettlement" is not soley responsible for gentrification it is often now a concern for some when one see more whites move onto the block...

Last edited by Woodlands; 03-05-2012 at 03:30 PM..
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Old 03-05-2012, 06:18 PM
 
Location: Maryland
18,563 posts, read 15,781,748 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenchild08 View Post
But White people did take jobs away from the inner city because affluent White people owned the factories that got shut down. Yes, thousands of manufacturing jobs were offshored, and you bet an American White guy got payed doing that. And White flight in every city in America was a direct result of racism. Ever heard the phrase "There goes the neighborhood"? That is what White people said when a Black person moved into an all-White neighborhood in the city. Before almost every inner city ghetto in America was occupied by primarily Black folks, those same neighborhoods and houses were occupied by working/middle class White people. This is the case from Baltimore to Detroit to Compton. White folks left these cities in droves when Black people started moving in for a better life.

Blacks in the inner city got left behind when America de-industrialized. This is the reason why every inner city in America is rife with crime because people are forced to make money outside of the system. Most high paid White collar degree snobs in the wealthy DC/Baltimore suburbs don't really produce anything of absolute necessary value. The world would continue to keep spinning without overpaid paper pushers. However, we need farmers and truck drivers to continue eating, but that is another thread altogether.
Progressives with their high taxes are what drive and keep capital away. Race is merely a smokescreen.
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Old 03-05-2012, 06:54 PM
 
146 posts, read 321,394 times
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Shocker "white people" dont want to live in neighborhoods where there is a high chance of being shot, robbed, harassed, cursed at, beat up, with little amenities that they like......so shocking
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