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Old 03-05-2012, 07:57 PM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
6,473 posts, read 10,742,510 times
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Anybody who is just going to spout out the usual platitudes ought to read what Woodlands wrote. I know it's a bit long for the Twitter generation but it's an accurate explanation of the problem without resorting to usual fall-back excuses.
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Old 03-06-2012, 06:52 AM
 
332 posts, read 1,111,343 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dclamb3 View Post
I can't speak for the entire city, I can only speak from my own personal experience growing up here.

I went to school very close to the city/county line (about 2 miles) so we had a nice mixed set of kids in my school (not all of one or the other, a nice balance).

I found it interesting that I had a lot of white friends, but also a lot of black, latin, etc friends, yet a lunch time, no matter how much I tried to convince them, the blacks, latins, etc, sat with their respective groups.

In addition to my girlfriends, one of my closest friends was a black boy. He and I even went to the school dance together (as friends), but at lunch, still back to the tables with the other black kids he went.

I almost felt like it was elective reverse discrimination. Like they didn't want to sit with the whites. It was very odd, for sure.
Why didn't you sit with them instead of convincing them to sit with you?

I had a similar experience but it was in the burbs in NJ.
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:52 AM
 
653 posts, read 699,556 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyLisa View Post
Why didn't you sit with them instead of convincing them to sit with you?

I had a similar experience but it was in the burbs in NJ.
Good question. Because I don't like to invite myself, and didn't want to impose. It's like they had a rep to protect, which was odd because outside of there, it didn't seem to matter as much at all.



And to add to the thread as a whole...

#1 While I agree Baltimore is segregated (for whatever reason you want to put on it), many of the other cities I've lived in were also segregated, maybe even moreso than Baltimore. I don't think it's unique to this city.

#2 I always shucked it up to people in a lot of ways, segregating themselves. Look at the Greeks in Greektown, for example, or Little Italy. People come to this country, often not speaking fluent English (my family included), and they tend to remain a close nit with the people that they have similarities with (my family included), and can communicate with (my family included). Also, income and class sometimes play a role in this, as well (my family included).

While I think forcing people to segregate obviously isn't good, I think self-segregation can be a form of comfort and survival, and it's up to that particular group to decide. If that's their choice, just like the kids in my school lunch room, let them do what makes them happy.

I, for one, know that if I were to uproot my life and move out of country, which I almost did, during that planning I was already seeking out the American and English-speaking communities, to aid in my transition, and so I could feel comfort in having people around that had similar customs and backgrounds.

Last edited by dclamb3; 03-06-2012 at 08:00 AM..
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Old 03-06-2012, 08:37 AM
 
5,741 posts, read 8,819,324 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dclamb3 View Post
Good question. Because I don't like to invite myself, and didn't want to impose. It's like they had a rep to protect, which was odd because outside of there, it didn't seem to matter as much at all.



And to add to the thread as a whole...

#1 While I agree Baltimore is segregated (for whatever reason you want to put on it), many of the other cities I've lived in were also segregated, maybe even moreso than Baltimore. I don't think it's unique to this city.

#2 I always shucked it up to people in a lot of ways, segregating themselves. Look at the Greeks in Greektown, for example, or Little Italy. People come to this country, often not speaking fluent English (my family included), and they tend to remain a close nit with the people that they have similarities with (my family included), and can communicate with (my family included). Also, income and class sometimes play a role in this, as well (my family included).

While I think forcing people to segregate obviously isn't good, I think self-segregation can be a form of comfort and survival, and it's up to that particular group to decide. If that's their choice, just like the kids in my school lunch room, let them do what makes them happy.

I, for one, know that if I were to uproot my life and move out of country, which I almost did, during that planning I was already seeking out the American and English-speaking communities, to aid in my transition, and so I could feel comfort in having people around that had similar customs and backgrounds.
This is true.. today you may have more Latinos in places like Greektown and Highlandtown than you do Greeks or Irish. You see both Hispanic restaurants next to Greek Restaurants each flying their own flag, colors, or adding flavor. If you went back 50 or even 100 years there may have been bloodshed and riots in the streets if the situation were the same. Today, no one (except maybe one or two old timers) bats an eyelid.

One of the interesting things about Hispanics moving into areas such as Highlandtown, Greektown, etc that

1) You have less Greeks or Irish living in these areas now so the whole solidarity and keep "them" out notion is probably non existent. Many Irish and Greeks of the second and third generations have probably married outside of their ethnic group and likely assimiliated into what would be called "American" Culture and bought homes in the suburbs and beyond.

2) Latinos moving into the neighborhood came at a time where the cultural revolution had fundamentally ended. Aside from the great debates over national immigration. Much of the culture wars of the 60s and 70s have been fought, intergration was taking hold therefore most areas were easily infiltrated...which wasnt the case for African Americans where intergration was a flashpoint.. Many Latios were able to benefit from the fact that the bulk of the fighting was over.. though they are by no means in the clear in some communities because of the illegal immigration debate.

3) The other benefit of Latinos moving into some neighborhoods goes back to good ole American Capitalism, Greed, and Sterotyping. Many Latinos own restaurants or grocery stores.. Many Americans like to eat in restaurants that serve Mexicanor Peruvian Food etc.....not to mention listening to salsa music..and now these type of stores fill once vacant storefronts and attract people that travel from the burbs and across the city to dine and dance while bragging that they ate some "real" Latin food....

I recall a conversation a friend of mine said about his Greek Grandmother in Greektown who wanted to get her screen fixed and porch painted. She declined his invitation to find someone in the yellowpages and told him...."Go down the street to that Spanish Guy's house and ask him to come up and do it... He does a real good job and he did my neighbors and he gave them a real good price".. The point here is social interdependence is a major segregation barrier breaker... We eat each others food, dance to each others music, and exchange services and trade with our neighbors that live down the street regardless of what they look like, but from what they offer or whatever benefit that they can provide to "me". These are some of the informal hallmarks of change and they happen so gradually and we dont even notice..

Last edited by Woodlands; 03-06-2012 at 08:48 AM..
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Old 03-06-2012, 02:08 PM
 
653 posts, read 699,556 times
Reputation: 408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodlands View Post
This is true.. today you may have more Latinos in places like Greektown and Highlandtown than you do Greeks or Irish. You see both Hispanic restaurants next to Greek Restaurants each flying their own flag, colors, or adding flavor. If you went back 50 or even 100 years there may have been bloodshed and riots in the streets if the situation were the same. Today, no one (except maybe one or two old timers) bats an eyelid.

One of the interesting things about Hispanics moving into areas such as Highlandtown, Greektown, etc that

1) You have less Greeks or Irish living in these areas now so the whole solidarity and keep "them" out notion is probably non existent. Many Irish and Greeks of the second and third generations have probably married outside of their ethnic group and likely assimiliated into what would be called "American" Culture and bought homes in the suburbs and beyond.

2) Latinos moving into the neighborhood came at a time where the cultural revolution had fundamentally ended. Aside from the great debates over national immigration. Much of the culture wars of the 60s and 70s have been fought, intergration was taking hold therefore most areas were easily infiltrated...which wasnt the case for African Americans where intergration was a flashpoint.. Many Latios were able to benefit from the fact that the bulk of the fighting was over.. though they are by no means in the clear in some communities because of the illegal immigration debate.

3) The other benefit of Latinos moving into some neighborhoods goes back to good ole American Capitalism, Greed, and Sterotyping. Many Latinos own restaurants or grocery stores.. Many Americans like to eat in restaurants that serve Mexicanor Peruvian Food etc.....not to mention listening to salsa music..and now these type of stores fill once vacant storefronts and attract people that travel from the burbs and across the city to dine and dance while bragging that they ate some "real" Latin food....

I recall a conversation a friend of mine said about his Greek Grandmother in Greektown who wanted to get her screen fixed and porch painted. She declined his invitation to find someone in the yellowpages and told him...."Go down the street to that Spanish Guy's house and ask him to come up and do it... He does a real good job and he did my neighbors and he gave them a real good price".. The point here is social interdependence is a major segregation barrier breaker... We eat each others food, dance to each others music, and exchange services and trade with our neighbors that live down the street regardless of what they look like, but from what they offer or whatever benefit that they can provide to "me". These are some of the informal hallmarks of change and they happen so gradually and we dont even notice..
I don't have numbers, but I wouldn’t say there are more Latinos than Greeks in Greektown, yet (although, my view could be biased since I clearly know the Greeks better). Upper Fells Point and over into Highlandtown, absolutely. Aside from that, I can’t speak knowledgeably on the Latin culture you mention, since I have no background in it.

While that hasn’t been the case for my family or those in my community (second and third generation frequently marrying outside of our ethnic group, sometimes yes, often, no), I can’t speak for other families. I do imagine that what you say is true, for the most part, though regarding ethnics, as a whole.

I absolutely agree that we need each other. I think the biggest asset to social integration, at least in my experience, has been that generations that aren’t here fresh off the boat speak better English so they're actually able to ask anyone, not just their Greek friend that understands their language, to fix the screen.

Also, at least for Greeks, they are very community oriented. They’d much rather hire a neighbor to do something (no matter what nationality they are) than a stranger from a phone book. Being like that kept them segregated when they only spoke Greek, but now that newer generations are bilingual, it means more mixing with other cultures since those cultures now live next door and we can actually communicate with them!

Let's just hope that neighbor knows how to fix a screen, though.
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Old 03-06-2012, 06:55 PM
Status: "I am in preparation mode!" (set 13 days ago)
 
5,515 posts, read 5,514,151 times
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It happens everywhere. People tend to gravitate towards people of a similar culture.
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:47 PM
 
Location: Brawndo-Thirst-Mutilator-Nation
15,252 posts, read 15,258,066 times
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Most people segregate buy race.....that is the way they prefer it.


What is the big deal if it is voluntary????
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:54 PM
 
Location: Brawndo-Thirst-Mutilator-Nation
15,252 posts, read 15,258,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baltomod View Post
This is a very interesting thread. I've only read partway through it. It explains the history of this city, but it doesn't explain why this segregation persists. Is everyone happy with this arrangement? I don't like it. I don't want my kids growing up thinking this is normal. It was normal in my childhood, when the entire US was segregated, but now I want my children to grow up in a world where race doesn't matter. Culture is important, but race, which to my mind only refers to what someone looks like, should no longer be relevant when choosing a neighborhood or city or partner for that matter.

I grew up in a neighborhood that was 99% white.......and I had NO problem with that.

People are making stuff up........MOST people prefer to live around others of the same race as themselves..............big deal..............no problem exists.
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Old 03-06-2012, 08:01 PM
 
Location: Brawndo-Thirst-Mutilator-Nation
15,252 posts, read 15,258,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baltomod View Post
This is an old question, but it ought to be irrelevant. It seems to me that there is an inherent distrust between the races here in Baltimore and a hostility that is based upon ignorance of each other. If you live in separate worlds, how do you expect to understand each other, even if you are just down the street from one another?

What bothers me is that no one ever talks about this here. Back where I come from in the middle of the country, we do talk about it quite a bit. Yes, it's segregated there too, but somehow it's not quite as obvious as it is here. And there's a real sense that people are trying to change it.

I know the reason for the ongoing segregation in Baltimore is partly economic and partly historic, but it feels like an anachronism. Baltimore ought to be on the cutting edge of racial integration, as it once was on the cutting edge of segregation, as I can see from Barante's post. Why is it not a priority for everyone here -- black and white -- to integrate this city more thoroughly?

And no, I don't mean forced integration, which we all know doesn't work. I mean make a conscious effort to enable groups of people who traditionally turned their backs on each other, to turn around and talk with each other. Get together and figure out how we all can get along and work to make this a better, maybe even a great city. I don't see this happening at all, at least not in the year since I moved here.

I just found this five year old article from Urbanite:

The Elephant in the City | History | Urbanite Baltimore Magazine

The article explains a lot about the history of what I'm talking about. Sadly, it appears that nothing has changed in five years.

Wow, great article......more blame whitey bilge!!!!!!!!!!!

People CHOSE to segregate by race.................uh, why is this a problem????
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Old 03-06-2012, 08:24 PM
 
653 posts, read 699,556 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlinak View Post
Baltimore is very segregated, much like my native Philadelphia.

However, I found Harford County to be very integrated, especially Aberdeen and Havre De Grace.

A previous poster made a very true observation regarding the difference between the East Coast (more segregation) and the West Coast (more integration). I know here in Alaska (which is on the West coast and waaay up north) people are not segregated by race but by socioeconomic class, which is an entirely different thread.
Perhaps in areas like Silicon Valley there is more integration (I won't get into why that is ), but when I lived in SoCal and Seattle, those areas, in my experience, were as segregated as Baltimore. The difference probably just seems more shoking in Baltimore because here we have a lot of white and a lot of black (so to see them segregted, even if elected, gives ones flashbacks to darker times in US history).

In SoCal, there are a lot of white, and a lot of latin (so when they're segregated, it doesn't have the same visual shock based on US history). Same in NorCal, there are a lot of white and a lot of Asians (also, not as much of a shock to see them segregated, though, the Asians are happily integrating with the whites for reasons that aren't related to this thread).

These are all very sweeping generalizations, but you get the point.

Although, I still feel that the word segregation has a negative connotation, and I have a hard time using it in this way, as I don't see it as anyone telling anyone where or how to live based on their ethnicity, but rather a decision that is made by like people to remain together (aka self-segregation, or rather, a coming together of common people, if you will). Nothing wrong with that, if it makes them happy. I know it made my family happy to remain near other Greeks. Why is that not shocking? Because Greeks are white, and so are non-Greeks? Same concept as black and white. I say, if everyone is happy, it's all good.

Last edited by dclamb3; 03-06-2012 at 08:38 PM..
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