What is up with Baltimore's highways? (Frederick, Towson: 2014, taxi, taxes)

[DarkWolf]

Originally Posted by jonjj

I don't want to interupt your dialog but something is bothering me with the argument.

First and foremost, I want to applaud "westsideboy" for being such an advocate for his area of Allegheny County. It truely is a beautiful area and I respect his right to defend it. By the way, there's some money up there in Cumberland. Go up Washington Street and you see it.

Here is my concern. Yes, transit is paid for by taxes. But roads of any sort are also paid for by taxes. That part isn't stressed enough. So let's use Baltimore Street in the city as an example. Let's say a mile length of Baltimore from President Street going east to Highland Avenue (probably more than a mile). How many cars are using that street in an hour's time? I'm guessing here but I would say in the 1000's. I live on Baltimore Street and can attest to a lot of traffic. Now let's compare that same length of road in rural Maryland. 1000's in an hour? I don't think so. My point? That stretch of road in rural Maryland requires the same amount of upkeep as a busy city street. Same amount of $'s-yet less used.
Subsidized by who? Taxpayers? And where do most of them live? Metro areas.

So you see, the argument about what is to be subsidized and who is to be taxed is a very difficult debate.

For the betterment of the state as a whole, more public transit is a necessity. And interestingly enough, there should be better transit option in the Cumberland area. Lavale should be connected for those who want to shed the car mentality.

Just my two cents. Sorry for the interuption.

Alot of people think the cities and suburbs are wasteful , but rural areas are often a drain on the states....in the upkeep dept. There are thousands of miles of rural roads in each state ,yet most roads are only used by fewer then 7000 a day...wasteful in my opinion. Most Suburban and Urban Roads see between 40-70,000 cars , pedestrians a day , same with Urban and Suburban Rail...

[westsideboy]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Alot of people think the cities and suburbs are wasteful , but rural areas are often a drain on the states....in the upkeep dept. There are thousands of miles of rural roads in each state ,yet most roads are only used by fewer then 7000 a day...wasteful in my opinion. Most Suburban and Urban Roads see between 40-70,000 cars , pedestrians a day , same with Urban and Suburban Rail...

So what should be done with rural roads? Allow them to revert back to mule paths?

A funny undercurrent in all of this is that I am assuming that most of the people I am talking to would consider themselves liberals, in favor of helping the less fortunate, and maybe some of you are even follow the Dem plank of raising taxes on the rich to help the poor out more.

The poorest and least developed juristictions in the state are the rural ones. The richest? The ones that will be getting millions (or is it billions?) of tax dollars spent to make their already prosperous areas more prosperous.

I will gladly take the opt out and have our community sink or swim on its own, but for those of you that want the gas tax raised in the entire state, and the money spent to improve the suburbs, how do you justify robbing the poor to fed the rich?

[DarkWolf]

Originally Posted by westsideboy

So what should be done with rural roads? Allow them to revert back to mule paths?

A funny undercurrent in all of this is that I am assuming that most of the people I am talking to would consider themselves liberals, in favor of helping the less fortunate, and maybe some of you are even follow the Dem plank of raising taxes on the rich to help the poor out more.

The poorest and least developed juristictions in the state are the rural ones. The richest? The ones that will be getting millions (or is it billions?) of tax dollars spent to make their already prosperous areas more prosperous.

I will gladly take the opt out and have our community sink or swim on its own, but for those of you that want the gas tax raised in the entire state, and the money spent to improve the suburbs, how do you justify robbing the poor to fed the rich?

Make some of the roads dirt again , this is done in Rural Europe to save millions in upkeep costs on roads that don't see much traffic. No , I favor giving the more populated places more....most Rural areas just want to be left alone. One of the reasons for Rural areas being poor is lack of education and isolation...

[westsideboy]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Make some of the roads dirt again , this is done in Rural Europe to save millions in upkeep costs on roads that don't see much traffic. No , I favor giving the more populated places more....most Rural areas just want to be left alone. One of the reasons for Rural areas being poor is lack of education and isolation...

Much if not most of the rural road mileage in Allegany is dirt or tar and chip, only the main arteries that are paved, and this is mostly for safety reasons in school bus transport.

So, do you respect our right to be left alone then? If you had the power, would you give us the opt out of a regressive gas tax that would fund mass transit in metro Maryland?

[jonjj]

Originally Posted by westsideboy

So what should be done with rural roads? Allow them to revert back to mule paths?

A funny undercurrent in all of this is that I am assuming that most of the people I am talking to would consider themselves liberals, in favor of helping the less fortunate, and maybe some of you are even follow the Dem plank of raising taxes on the rich to help the poor out more.

The poorest and least developed juristictions in the state are the rural ones. The richest? The ones that will be getting millions (or is it billions?) of tax dollars spent to make their already prosperous areas more prosperous.

I will gladly take the opt out and have our community sink or swim on its own, but for those of you that want the gas tax raised in the entire state, and the money spent to improve the suburbs, how do you justify robbing the poor to fed the rich?

There is a lot of wealth in rural Maryland also from horsefarms to gentlemen farmers. You are making a silly assumption by saying the rural areas are the poorest. I bet a lot of folks in inner city Baltimore would be upset with that statement. Sadly, poverty exists throughout Maryland even though it is one of the wealthiest states per capita in the country.

[rfp]

"... a regressive gas tax that would fund mass transit ..."

Fiscal subsidization of public transportation in urban areas is considered progressive, not regressive, by those who study such matters. It is done universally throughout the world. It is analogous to food stamps.

[westsideboy]

Originally Posted by jonjj

There is a lot of wealth in rural Maryland also from horsefarms to gentlemen farmers. You are making a silly assumption by saying the rural areas are the poorest. I bet a lot of folks in inner city Baltimore would be upset with that statement. Sadly, poverty exists throughout Maryland even though it is one of the wealthiest states per capita in the country.

Oh, you mean the "rural" exurbs of central Maryland. Yeah, plenty of gentleman farmers and horse breeders in those parts, all within a nice commute of job centers. When I use rural, I mean something different entirely. My defintion is those parts of Maryland that are so isolated they are outside of the commuter loops that drive the economic engine of Maryland. Places like Garrett, Allegany, Dorchester, Somerset, and a few other lower shore counties. Check out the poverty numbers there when compared to ahem "rural" Carroll, Harford, Frederick, etc. Not even close in terms of poverty rates and per capita income.


But really, look at the numbers for Cumberland and Baltimore and tell me what you think.


Cumberland, Maryland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Baltimore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pretty amazing that overall poverty rate is higher in Cumberland than Baltimore and families living in poverty is just 0.1 off. Pretty crazy that the median (mid point so the rich folks in Guilford can't skew the stats) household income is lower in Cumberland than Baltimore. The per capita income imbalance is much worse (that is because of the moneyed class Baltimore has that Cumberland really doesn't)

People don't seem to understand this because the poor in Baltimore have that nasty propensity to live in even worse conditions then their income levels would dictate due to their tendency to trash their own city and kill each other in the streets which makes their situation worse, not something happening in Cumberland to that extreme yet.

But dollar for dollar, person for person, Baltimore has more. It is a crazy world, isn't it?

[westsideboy]

Originally Posted by rfp

Fiscal subsidization of public transportation in urban areas is considered progressive, not regressive, by those who study such matters. It is done universally throughout the world. It is analogous to food stamps.

You are using the terms regressive and progressive to mean backwards and forwards. That isn't what the words mean when applied to taxation.

A tax on gasoline is by defintion REGRESSIVE. That means it takes a higher percent of income from the poor that pay it, than the rich.

Assume two people that buy the same amount of gas and pay the same amount of tax as it is simply a percent added to the sale. A person that makes $300,000 a year and pays $300 to the gas tax is paying a lower percent of their total income than a person that makes $30,000 and pays $300. In fact the poor pays more as a % of total income by a factor of 10. Other examples of regressive taxes are vice taxes and sales tax.

The opposite of this is a PROGRESSIVE tax in which the rate of taxation is comenserate with the income of the person paying. Income tax is an example of this. The higher tax brackets pay something like 20-30% of their income, those in the lower brackets can pay as little as nothing.

Make sense?

[InvaderBryce]

I don't understand how you expect the state to subsidize mass transit w/o a gas tax? Unless of course you'd be open to the state raising the sales, income and estate taxes just to offset the cost.

[jonjj]

Originally Posted by westsideboy

Oh, you mean the "rural" exurbs of central Maryland. Yeah, plenty of gentleman farmers and horse breeders in those parts, all within a nice commute of job centers. When I use rural, I mean something different entirely. My defintion is those parts of Maryland that are so isolated they are outside of the commuter loops that drive the economic engine of Maryland. Places like Garrett, Allegany, Dorchester, Somerset, and a few other lower shore counties. Check out the poverty numbers there when compared to ahem "rural" Carroll, Harford, Frederick, etc. Not even close in terms of poverty rates and per capita income.


But really, look at the numbers for Cumberland and Baltimore and tell me what you think.


Cumberland, Maryland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Baltimore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pretty amazing that overall poverty rate is higher in Cumberland than Baltimore and families living in poverty is just 0.1 off. Pretty crazy that the median (mid point so the rich folks in Guilford can't skew the stats) household income is lower in Cumberland than Baltimore. The per capita income imbalance is much worse (that is because of the moneyed class Baltimore has that Cumberland really doesn't)

People don't seem to understand this because the poor in Baltimore have that nasty propensity to live in even worse conditions then their income levels would dictate due to their tendency to trash their own city and kill each other in the streets which makes their situation worse, not something happening in Cumberland to that extreme yet.

But dollar for dollar, person for person, Baltimore has more. It is a crazy world, isn't it?

There are horse farms in Garrett County far away from the urban masses. There is also a lot of money out that way. Don't forget that rural Maryland goes both ways--not just west. There is plenty of rural wealth on the eastern shore also. Yes, the income average may be higher in Baltimore. Tell that to the poor folks who live here. It doesn't mean a thing.