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Old 08-22-2014, 11:53 PM
 
Location: Patterson Park, Baltimore
934 posts, read 1,052,174 times
Reputation: 608

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Quote:
Originally Posted by B.H81 View Post
Does the person you are referencing live in the Baltimore area? What type of work skills do they have? I own a business and I am regularly seeking strong local talent.
They do not. They still live in New York, unfortunately. I appreciate your asking, though.

 
Old 08-22-2014, 11:59 PM
 
451 posts, read 1,225,070 times
Reputation: 216
Not a problem. I sometimes have remote opportunities available. What type of work are they looking for?
 
Old 08-23-2014, 10:12 AM
 
Location: The Triad
34,091 posts, read 82,490,189 times
Reputation: 43648
Quote:
Originally Posted by designer_genes View Post
How do you define success?
I don't really personally know any "unsuccessful" people...
Start with Maslow.
And having/doing the lower level from your own effort.

Whether born into wealth or into dire poverty...
some will rise (or fall) to a degree of self reliant subsistence (and better) and some just won't.

The real test it what will become of their subsequent generations.
Which is also the real indictment of virtually all that has been done in the past 50 years.

Last edited by MrRational; 08-23-2014 at 10:34 AM..
 
Old 08-23-2014, 04:49 PM
 
226 posts, read 411,364 times
Reputation: 199
Quote:
1) If SAT scores are highly correlated with cognitive ability as you state, why do you think the scores are not highly correlated with college success, as evidenced by the studies posted? Do you believe cognitive ability has little impact on success in college?
I'll point out the same thing about the SAT as I will about the ASVAB (because I have seen what I'm about to say apply to the ASVAB with my own eyes)

YES, the tests can be a broad indicator of education (maybe intelligence, but more education) which is fine for college aptitude. Its basically measuring how well you have mastered general concepts (math, english etc) that you will need to apply in college

HOWEVER

knowing how to take the test, being a good test taker, understanding the system, etc is a huge part of it.

How do you know this?

because how many people have you seen go take an SAT or ASVAB prep course and dramatically improve their scores.

In the military, a I saw plenty of people who didn't have enough scores for the job field they wanted a lat move to, go take the 2 week ASVAB prep course, retake the ASVAB and get the better score they needed.

Now, do you really think 2 weeks in a classroom crash course made them smarter/more educated/better at math? or do you think they got a better understanding of the test and test taking strategies?
 
Old 08-23-2014, 07:27 PM
 
Location: Maryland
18,630 posts, read 19,338,905 times
Reputation: 6460
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrh0341 View Post
I'll point out the same thing about the SAT as I will about the ASVAB (because I have seen what I'm about to say apply to the ASVAB with my own eyes)

YES, the tests can be a broad indicator of education (maybe intelligence, but more education) which is fine for college aptitude. Its basically measuring how well you have mastered general concepts (math, english etc) that you will need to apply in college

HOWEVER

knowing how to take the test, being a good test taker, understanding the system, etc is a huge part of it.

How do you know this?

because how many people have you seen go take an SAT or ASVAB prep course and dramatically improve their scores.

In the military, a I saw plenty of people who didn't have enough scores for the job field they wanted a lat move to, go take the 2 week ASVAB prep course, retake the ASVAB and get the better score they needed.

Now, do you really think 2 weeks in a classroom crash course made them smarter/more educated/better at math? or do you think they got a better understanding of the test and test taking strategies?
The military has used various permutations of an IQ test for 100 years, if it didn't work they wouldn't use it.
 
Old 08-23-2014, 10:14 PM
 
580 posts, read 773,124 times
Reputation: 740
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrh0341 View Post
I'll point out the same thing about the SAT as I will about the ASVAB (because I have seen what I'm about to say apply to the ASVAB with my own eyes)

YES, the tests can be a broad indicator of education (maybe intelligence, but more education) which is fine for college aptitude. Its basically measuring how well you have mastered general concepts (math, english etc) that you will need to apply in college

HOWEVER

knowing how to take the test, being a good test taker, understanding the system, etc is a huge part of it.

How do you know this?

because how many people have you seen go take an SAT or ASVAB prep course and dramatically improve their scores.

In the military, a I saw plenty of people who didn't have enough scores for the job field they wanted a lat move to, go take the 2 week ASVAB prep course, retake the ASVAB and get the better score they needed.

Now, do you really think 2 weeks in a classroom crash course made them smarter/more educated/better at math? or do you think they got a better understanding of the test and test taking strategies?
Test taking strategies are a part of it.

However, if you want to become a doctor or a lawyer, hate to break the news to you, but test-taking never ends.

For future physicians, MCAT (8 hour test), Shelf exams, USMLE Step 1-3 (multi-day), Boards, recertification exams every 10 years.

So...better learn how to take tests. And FWIW, the further you go, the more knowledge you have to cram in, in addition to adequate test taking

Last edited by pokeable; 08-23-2014 at 10:42 PM..
 
Old 08-24-2014, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Gardenville
759 posts, read 1,348,364 times
Reputation: 1039
Quote:
Originally Posted by lanhvtnymd View Post
I actually had a lot of free time this evening, so with pleasure, I present evidence (since it is exceedingly difficult for you to comprehend anything I said, particularly the last paragraph of post 47):

A. Is the first post in this thread not about Baltimore City SAT scores and how this indicates that Baltimore City children as a whole are not intelligent?

B. Does post 2 not refer to a "pre-apocalypse" Baltimore (enlighten us on what caused the apocalypse in Baltimore, by the way)?

C. Does post 5 not say "I'm speaking in terms of group statistics not individual ability, and on that measure I can't find much hope or impressive intellectual achievement coming out of Baltimore City high schools.....what's left is a concentrated population of the regions least intelligent, least promising individuals.

D. Does post 7 not say "If the Black community wanted to help their young men succeed in school they would do well to concentrate on these. Among them are [learn patience, learn control, focus and stop being lazy, know your place, know your place, believe that education is the key to social mobility, ask for help.]"

E. Does post 9 not indicate that "pre-apocalypse" Baltimore was "a different era in a different Baltimore in a different America"?

F. Does post 11 not say "I'm not blaming the schools directly for their low performance. I'm blaming the students and more importantly the families of the students that lack the drive, role models, and intellectual capacity to achieve."

G. Does post 15 not say "However, saying that achievement has NOTHING to do with innate intelligence is an obvious over statement....I don't think it's unreasonable to say that a greater portion of Baltimore City students, compared to the national average, fall into this category....local liberals [imply] it's NEVER the poor black community's fault for their own shortcomings."

H. Post 18: Yes, I do believe that the average Baltimore City resident/native is inherently less intelligent than the average American....Relative intelligence is an inherited trait.... and there's plenty of research out there demonstrating the aggregate positive relationship between intelligence and achievement. My theory on Baltimore goes like this: for decades intelligent and consequently successful people had left Baltimore at a greater pace then they were replaced...For decades Baltimore City acted as a kind of filter, letting out the most productive members of society, but catching the lowest rungs of society (in terms of intelligence, social [mores], criminal disposition, and general anti-social behavior....A lot of people are suffering in this city because they're just plain stupid."

I. In reply to post 17 ("Do you honestly believe that the average Baltimore resident/native is inherently less intelligent than the average American?"), post 31: "Yes and there is no doubt in my mind about it."

J. In reply to post 1 ("Most high schools in Baltimore City have an average SAT score of less than 700 (Reading and Math) Look up any Baltimore-area schools? SAT scores - Baltimore Business Journal. As a point of reference the national average is generally around 1000. I don't blame upwardly mobile people from moving out of the city once they have kids. If I were a parent I would want my kids to be surrounded by smart children.... and statistically that's just not going to happen in Baltimore City."), post 33: "Horrendous, I achieved 650 and 660 on the two portions respectively, but it seems many kids in the city receive that as their entire test scores! My parents didn't do anything "special" for me other than raising my brother and I with decent moral values.....All my folks had to do was ensure we actually WENT to school, stayed off the streets, and did our homework. That's it, it really is that simple but the Baltimoreans (and Detroiters and Atlantonites and Oaklanders and Gary Indiana dwellers and the good folks of Ferguson Missouri) don't seem to grasp these concepts." [Note: These are all areas with high black/African American population.]

K. Post 34: "Individuals either want to learn or they don't and I'm tired of apologizing for those who simply do not want to train their own brains. Knowledge for knowledge's sake. Why are they not curious like normal humans?"

L. Moderator post 39: Please keep this discussion relevant, i.e., discussing the topic of SAT scores, without resorting to stereotyping entire demographic groups, based upon race/ethnicity. Thank you. [Note: this is relevant because clearly a moderator got the same impression that there was some racism going on in this thread.]

M. In response to post 42, post 43: "It's more apt to label the people not born into that kind of environment as "disadvantaged". The definition of disadvantage is: an unfavorable circumstance or condition that reduces the chances of success or effectiveness. While this may seem like a minor difference I think it rightfully puts the negative connotation back on what should, and usually is, the unusual and undesirable set of circumstances."

After reviewing the evidence, I recommend the following:

1. I know you love to make reading assignments, so I would hope you are open to the following: refer to the two paragraphs on this webpage (part of a larger website containing some really accessible information on genetics, i.e., for those of us here and referenced in the evidence above who are clearly not geneticists, free of bias themselves, or just not open-minded or well-informed in general): Mendelian genetics cannot fully explain human health and behavior :: DNA from the Beginning. Another good site: The forced sterilization of Carrie Buck :: DNA Learning Center.

Note: I do appreciate that even CSHL has the humility to self-reflect.

2. Go search Google for some more readily-accessible information related to the following terms: feeble-minded, Charles Davenport, Buck v. Bell, eugenics, eugenic sterilization laws, Skinner v. Oklahoma, Charles Davenport. If you're feeling really curious and adventurous, then Google names, cases, and events referenced in the sources you find. You may be at this for a while.

Note: read, re-read, absorb, reflect, unlearn, learn.

3. Objectively compare the evidence listed above to what you have read, re-read, absorbed, reflected upon, unlearned and learned.

4. Attempt to resist doing what you may prefer to do (i.e., abandon critical thinking and rely on what's easy: racism, unfortunate sources that support racism and/or scientific racism, and personal beef with African Americans/blacks/whatever pejorative you possibly use on a regular or semi-regular basis).

5. Re-read my post; attempt to comprehend why it says what it says.


If that all fails:

1. Acknowledge that this is all just a rhetorical exercise for you.

2. Answer your own question.

3. Avoid the people and area you believe to be degenerate at all costs and nestle yourself within your own cultural tribalism.

4. Stop being a masochist and just abandon ship: I suggest relocating to Maine or New Hampshire (Not Vermont; it tends to lean too liberal which creates entirely new groups to hate: poor white people and the 5% or so in the state who happen to not be white. In Maine and New Hampshire you get the best of both worlds: leaning socially and fiscally conservative and also predominantly white, making it more conducive to nestling yourself within your own cultural tribalism.). "One theory for the lack of diversity in the region: northern New England didn't have the same kinds of industries that drew African-American workers from the South in the 1930s and 1940s."* I know this is an era in US history and an event in US history that you like to reference. A lot. So I plucked that out just for you. You're welcome.

If you don't like cold winters, I don't know what to tell you. Maybe Kentucky?


Note: For some reason there are a lot of non-white people in areas of the US that have milder winters....go figure.

*Readily-accessible related article: Census Finds Least Diverse Part of Nation - ABC News





Well, this was actually kind of fun. Thanks for the opportunity to discuss my post further!

-----

And on an even more serious note: I hope some of this is helpful to those of you who may not want to suffer through this entire thread. It truly boggles my mind that this sort of discourse --with BLATANT racism, hate speech, and bashing (which are expressly against the City-Data Forum rules)--and the pretty obvious trolling, too, is constantly permitted to continue in the Baltimore forum.

See: http://www.city-data.com/forum/about...-religion.html

and

http://www.city-data.com/forum/faq/9...rum-rules.html

This appears to be an ad hominem attack itself. Why has a moderator not picked up upon it?
Possibly because it reflects said moderator's own beliefs and bias?
What a funny world we live in!
 
Old 08-25-2014, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Patterson Park, Baltimore
934 posts, read 1,052,174 times
Reputation: 608
Just some food for thought for the individuals in this thread asserting that intelligence is all about genetics and some people are just doomed to fail.

https://www.khanacademy.org/about/bl...ell-my-son-hes
 
Old 08-26-2014, 05:32 AM
 
Location: The Triad
34,091 posts, read 82,490,189 times
Reputation: 43648
Quote:
Originally Posted by designer_genes View Post
Just some food for thought for the individuals in this thread
asserting that intelligence is all about genetics...
Have you seen that sort of assertion? I sure haven't.

What I have seen though is assertion that TEST RESULTS and the other common markers of success
in academia or life in general will follow some basic and rather common patterns of behaviors (observed,
conditioned, etc) that are generally insisted upon in the households of those students who will and have
done well in school -whether completed last term or fifty years ago.

Is that really such a difficult distinction to latch onto?

Focusing on defending those households which don't (or can't) foster those behaviors
doesn't serve anyone involved in the least - parents, teachers, students or tax payers.
 
Old 08-26-2014, 09:25 AM
 
Location: Patterson Park, Baltimore
934 posts, read 1,052,174 times
Reputation: 608
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
Have you seen that sort of assertion? I sure haven't.
"Yes, I do believe that the average Baltimore City resident/native is inherently less intelligent than the average American....Relative intelligence is an inherited trait.... and there's plenty of research out there demonstrating the aggregate positive relationship between intelligence and achievement."

^ Exact words from this thread.
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