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Old 06-26-2015, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
11,108 posts, read 23,727,879 times
Reputation: 6427

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I personally never really thought the red line as proposed was worth the cost. I follow planning and construction of light rail and other transit systems all across the country and this is one project that was going to cost far more than the city and state would ever get back out of it and that huge tunnel under the city and harbor? You can take whatever estimate they have for that and add at least a billion. No way was that line going to be built for anything close to 2.5-3 billion and even that amount is a LOT for a 14 mile low volume light rail line. The purple line one the other hand is a really well thought out line that will be well worth the cost with high ridership and the potential to create billions in economic development. Not to mention it will actually take traffic off the beltway and other routes.

So how about Baltimore building a nice central city streetcar system? Something that could compliment the existing light rail and subway. You could really do about the same thing with streetcars as they planned to do with the red line at a fraction of the cost and you would be able to serve more areas of the city, like Federal Hill and Locust Point. Now I'm not talking about running streetcars in city traffic. DC has managed to really screw that up. That's also a total waste of money. You build the system to light rail standards (where needed) and they work well.

You could do it without building a 2 billion dollar tunnel too. Take a single lane away from Pratt and Lombard and run a dedicated streetcar line through downtown via those routes with the trains traveling east via Pratt and West via Lombard. Just like the existing subway in Baltimore, tunnels with hidden underground stops (that are often dirty, dangerous and intimidating) just don't do a lot to create economic development especially since the stops are so far apart. A streetcar system is scaled much better to the pedestrian at street level. They are perfect for very urban settings to move people round a small area and that's what Baltimore needs. It already had MARC Commuter Rail, Metro Subway and Light Rail for commuters, but it doesn't really have a good system for getting you around the city once down there or connecting people from near downtown neighborhoods to each other or downtown.

Baltimore could build an incredible streetcar system that does everything the red line would have done only it could be a 30 mile system instead of 14 and it would cost well under a billion to build.

Then you could actually take a train from Fells Point to Federal Hill and everything in between plus all the extensions to various outlying areas (like West Baltimore).

Streetcar is what Baltimore needs. Just remember, keep it above ground, keep it in its own right of way, build it to light rail standards and platforms large enough for longer coupled trains and the scale and cost will be perfect for what Central Baltimore needs.

Example of modern streetcar in dedicated right of way:
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Old 06-26-2015, 05:53 PM
 
2,483 posts, read 2,460,710 times
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Nice idea.

But I am wary of making even more transit investments in the Downtown area at the expense of residential neighborhoods. Downtown neighborhoods already have a dedicated system with 3 free transit routes and water taxis. One appeal of the Redline was that it served not only the Downtown area but other city neighborhoods too: everyone (well east-to-west at least) could claim a stake.
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Old 06-26-2015, 06:50 PM
 
1,310 posts, read 1,498,631 times
Reputation: 811
Quote:
Originally Posted by picardlx View Post
Nice idea.

But I am wary of making even more transit investments in the Downtown area at the expense of residential neighborhoods. Downtown neighborhoods already have a dedicated system with 3 free transit routes and water taxis. One appeal of the Redline was that it served not only the Downtown area but other city neighborhoods too: everyone (well east-to-west at least) could claim a stake.
A well thought out plan would offer great coverage of downtown and a mile or two away but it would also plan for gradual improvement and build-out. I am not an enemy of tunnels but they would need to respond to actual ridership and not simply be lines drawn on a map in secret by a MTA staffer. The objective should be a gradually expanding area where cars are not absolutely needed to get around. The problem with serving neighborhoods with an individual long line (like the Red Line) is that once you get downtown you still needs to be able to get around conveniently. Commuters will ride transit in from the suburbs if they don't feel stuck at the office once they get there.

Great connections and pleasant transfer points should also a be a top priority. A MTA transit planner actually told me years ago the Baltimore exceptionalism made hubs, etc. not work in Baltimore the way that they work everywhere else in the world. With that kind of boneheaded planning, it is no wonder that so much transit infrastructure money has accomplished so little. It is almost as if the projects were designed to fail.
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Old 06-26-2015, 09:20 PM
 
537 posts, read 764,726 times
Reputation: 720
Quote:
Originally Posted by pwduvall View Post
A well thought out plan would offer great coverage of downtown and a mile or two away but it would also plan for gradual improvement and build-out. I am not an enemy of tunnels but they would need to respond to actual ridership and not simply be lines drawn on a map in secret by a MTA staffer. The objective should be a gradually expanding area where cars are not absolutely needed to get around. The problem with serving neighborhoods with an individual long line (like the Red Line) is that once you get downtown you still needs to be able to get around conveniently. Commuters will ride transit in from the suburbs if they don't feel stuck at the office once they get there.

Great connections and pleasant transfer points should also a be a top priority. A MTA transit planner actually told me years ago the Baltimore exceptionalism made hubs, etc. not work in Baltimore the way that they work everywhere else in the world. With that kind of boneheaded planning, it is no wonder that so much transit infrastructure money has accomplished so little. It is almost as if the projects were designed to fail.

OMG don't even get me started.

The Red Line had flaws FOR SURE. But I agree with your last line wholeheartedly....this stuff has to be designed to fail. This is the only way the inevitable "let's connect Westminster to Columbia by light rail" or other crazy plan will get all of the head nods and "wow, that's a great idea!" remarks.

I'm getting more than a bit apoplectic about this whole Red Line cancellation, so I'm going to stop. But wow.....Maryland is getting to be quite the bizarro world.

The street car idea is a good one, but I seriously doubt that has a snowball's chance either.
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Old 06-26-2015, 09:47 PM
 
389 posts, read 423,820 times
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I don't have faith in a street car system being built since the Baltimore area is so anti-public transportation.

Last edited by Sunflowery; 06-26-2015 at 09:47 PM.. Reason: forgot a word
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Old 06-27-2015, 01:32 AM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
260 posts, read 839,284 times
Reputation: 130
A streetcar system would be absolutely pointless and would not increase mobility the least bit. This is because streetcars run in the street without their own right of way and sit in traffic with everybody else. Even if the streetcars were to run in their own dedicated lane, it still wouldn't make any sense because there would be only a slight capacity increase from an articulated bus.

I personally feel the next priority should be a short extension of the subway so that it meets with the MARC and create an East side bus hub. That and getting rid of Hogan.

Human Transit: streetcars: an inconvenient truth
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Old 06-27-2015, 02:10 AM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
11,108 posts, read 23,727,879 times
Reputation: 6427
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneworld25 View Post
A streetcar system would be absolutely pointless and would not increase mobility the least bit. This is because streetcars run in the street without their own right of way and sit in traffic with everybody else. Even if the streetcars were to run in their own dedicated lane, it still wouldn't make any sense because there would be only a slight capacity increase from an articulated bus.

I personally feel the next priority should be a short extension of the subway so that it meets with the MARC and create an East side bus hub. That and getting rid of Hogan.

Human Transit: streetcars: an inconvenient truth
Baltimore already has several high capacity long haul train lines that run through and or terminate in the city. How many cities the size of Baltimore have a heavy rail subway, a light rail and a commuter rail system? I think an east west light rail line would compliment the other lines, but even if the red line were built, central Baltimore would still lack a scaled street level, pedestrian friendly transit system. There is a reason that cities with light rail and or commuter rail are adding streetcar lines. They do a great job of connecting the dots in urban areas and promoting economic development at street level all along the line. Subway and even many light rail systems function more like commuter lines where people park on one end and get off on the other. They don't have the same effect on the urban fabric of a city that a streetcar system does.

I'm just saying that a well designed streetcar in a dedicated right of way would compliment the other rail lines in Baltimore and create a more comprehensive system.
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Old 06-27-2015, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Leafy London
504 posts, read 461,889 times
Reputation: 767
One thing's for sure - everywhere in Europe that did away with streetcars (we call trams) has regretted it. Most continental cities have them and they're well used. I've just come back from Berlin - surely the best served city by public transport in the world. It has a comprehensive subway (slightly old and creaking in parts), an elevated "S Bahn" AND trams everywhere - in the East. The Commies couldn't afford to pull up the tracks, so they kept them whilst in West the opposite happened - and they regret it now.

Berlin, like American cities, has the space for them. Wide roads and broad junctions. They intermingle with the traffic where not in dedicated ways, but it seems to work fine. In the evening, when the traffic dies down, they fly up the residential streets at what seemed a heck of a pace. There are cabs everywhere 24 hours a day, so it's a breeze to get around.

Several cities in the UK have or are bringing them back with varying success. The Manchester one is good by all accounts, but then Manchester has no subway (pitiful only London has a serious Metro). Edinburgh is a total balls up - wildly over budget and only one line where nobody wants to go. They say there's no room in London - and I'd agree - but you can't get a smaller, twistier city than Amsterdam, and they are the staple form of public transport there. Or they cycle.

Obviously I don't know Baltimore and it's neighbourhoods, but if it's done well, it can work. It does (ahem) need efficient and competent planning and execution.
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Old 06-27-2015, 10:55 AM
 
537 posts, read 764,726 times
Reputation: 720
Streetcars also complement the TTC in Toronto. Toronto has VIARail (like Amtrak) access, GOBuses and GOTrains (commuter rail and buses), their subway "The Rocket", and city buses and streetcars. All I know is the handful of cities in the US that did invest in public transit in earnest decades ago are probably so glad they did. Nowadays, good luck.
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Old 06-27-2015, 05:00 PM
 
5,289 posts, read 7,370,997 times
Reputation: 1158
Good idea! But these comments all over the place.
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