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You made this up, there is no jeopardy to the runner, the umpire has no authority to call an out on the play save the runner's failure to return immediately to first.
How many times do I have to keep saying this over and over again? Nobody (except you) has alluded to the runner being called out for overrunning first. The runner is in jeopardy of being called out, if he is tagged, after overrunning first, under circumstances which, in the umpire's judgment, do not constitute an immediate return to the base.
On a hit to the outfield, with no play being made on the runner at all, there is no tactical advantage to overrunning first, except to have momentum for continuing to second, which obviates the rule allowing the runner to do so. An immediate return to the base, where there is no need to overrun it at all, is an umpires judgment call, and overrunning a base where no play is being made is prima facie evidence of the runners intent to advance to the next base, which does not meet the test of an immediate return.
Immediate return, in the mind of a prudent umpire, has the meaning of having no thoughts whatsoever of advancing to the next base. The immediacy of return is cancelled the instant the runner indicates, by any means, thoughts of advancing to the next base, and that is how umpires call it when there is a play at first base and, for example, the throw bounces away.
You started out by completely making up a fictitious rule out of whole cloth . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander
The rule is that if the batter turns to the right and returns to firstbase, he is safe.
and now you are clutching at straws, using any spurious concatenations, to defend your unsupportable position. The plain fact is, it is an umpires judgment call, and he has nothing to go by but the runner's body language to judge whether the "immediate return" test has been met. If, in the umpire's judgment, it is not immediate return, then the runner has surrendered the immunity of 7.08 (c) and is in jeopardy of being called out if tagged while not touching a base. That's the rule, until you find one that contradicts it.
jtur:
You are being utterly absurd with these tortuous attempts to rehabilitate your error. You did what we all do from time to time, wrote something without being certain that it is true. It has been explained to you why it isn't true and you cannot accept that.
Good question. I have no idea and have never heard it addressed before. Someone mentioned avoiding slides at first (could be) it might be a game flow issue to by allowing the runner to make it to first easier. Who knows? I'd love to get the answer.
Another quirk about baseball is the infielders tossing the ball around after an out is made. A few weeks ago I was at a game with my uncle and he pointed out that the ball is never thrown to 1B. Another interesting observation and something I'd never picked up on before.
jtur:
You are being utterly absurd with these tortuous attempts to rehabilitate your error. You did what we all do from time to time, wrote something without being certain that it is true. It has been explained to you why it isn't true and you cannot accept that.
Accept it and stop this nonsense.
Wiat a minute. You said "The rule is that if the batter turns to the right and returns to firstbase, he is safe.", and now I'm the one absurdly and tortuously trying to rehabilitate an error? You were hopelessly and irredeemably wrong.
Wiat a minute. You said "The rule is that if the batter turns to the right and returns to firstbase, he is safe.", and now I'm the one absurdly and tortuously trying to rehabilitate an error?
Absolutely. You are overlooking, or pretending to overlook, my correction of that statement.
Quote:
So, while not the actual rule, the right turn was a sign of compliance with the rule
Unlike you, when I recognized that I was wrong, I quit insisting that I wasn't.
You may continue to beat, but the horse isn't going to get any deader.
Absolutely. You are overlooking, or pretending to overlook, my correction of that statement.
Unlike you, when I recognized that I was wrong, I quit insisting that I wasn't.
You may continue to beat, but the horse isn't going to get any deader.
Good. So you finally agree that the umpire makes the judgment call, based on "signs of compliance".
To me, if the batter-runner, on a clean hit to the outfield, runs past first base, that is a "sign of compliance" with intent to be in motion toward the next base, and the runner is now "between bases" with no immunity. Judgment call, based on signs of compliance.
So now you are saying you were right all along, because you agree with me now that it is a judgment call contingent on signs of compliance.
I don't know if you have ever played baseball before or not, but put yourself in the runners position. You just lined a single to the outfield, and when you get to first, you keep going past the bag at full speed. Where are you going? Why? What is the umpire to conclude from that sign, and how is he to judge your intent?
one thing i never understood. why are baserunners allowed to over-run first base (and of course home plate too, but that's a non-issue; i'm just pointing out the similarity) but runners are not allowed to over-run second base and third base?
Simply because someone decided that that was the rule.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancet71
If you overrun any other base excluding 1st, you are actually going in the direction of the next base. Going straight up the first baseline or to the right does not shorten your distance to 2nd base.
That's not true.
Assuming that the basepaths are a true square, then the shortest distance between any two bases is a right angle. Over running any base increases the distance to the next base.
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Lance71 you rock
