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Old 07-11-2011, 03:36 PM
 
Location: A good place
855 posts, read 724,025 times
Reputation: 1028

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Call me when he passes Pete Rose. Along with a few more records. Its just doesn't seem right to have these records and not be in the Hall of Fame, regardless of what he did AFTER he was a player. Hard to overlook his stats.


Records and achievements
  • Major League records:
    • Most career hits - 4,256
    • Most career outs - 10,328
    • Most career games played - 3,562
    • Most career at bats - 14,053
    • Most career singles - 3,215
    • Most career runs by a switch hitter - 2,165
    • Most career doubles by a switch hitter - 746
    • Most career walks by a switch hitter - 1,566
    • Most career total bases by a switch hitter - 5,752
    • Most seasons of 200 or more hits - 10
    • Most consecutive seasons of 100 or more hits - 23
    • Most consecutive seasons with 600 or more at bats - 13 (1968–1980)
    • Most seasons with 600 at bats - 17
    • Most seasons with 150 or more games played - 17
    • Most seasons with 100 or more games played - 23
    • Record for playing in the most winning games - 1,972
    • Only player in major league history to play more than 500 games at five different positions - 1B (939), LF (671), 3B (634), 2B (628), RF (595)

Last edited by xsthomas; 07-11-2011 at 04:08 PM..
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Old 07-11-2011, 06:11 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
11,236 posts, read 7,322,289 times
Reputation: 8477
Quote:
Originally Posted by xsthomas View Post
Call me when he passes Pete Rose. Along with a few more records. Its just doesn't seem right to have these records and not be in the Hall of Fame, regardless of what he did AFTER he was a player. Hard to overlook his stats.
There is little point in reviewing Rose's stats and accomplishments as a player, the argument has never been that his play was insufficient for enshrinement.


The distinction you are attempting to make..."after he was a player" would be meaningful were it not the case that Rose was an active manager at the time of his gambling on baseball. Surely you do not condemn such activity in a player while allowing it in a manager.

He was a great player, but also a shameless self promoter and dishonest man. I respected his play, but found his personality disagreeable, so I was kinda glad when he derailed his reputation by getting caught, and then lying about it repeatedly in public for more than a decade.

"Regardless" of what he did, you wrote, but that is like asking folks to elect John Wilkes Booth to the actors Hall of Fame....regardless of what he may have done when he wasn't performing.
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Old 07-11-2011, 06:59 PM
 
Location: Texas
1,632 posts, read 217,959 times
Reputation: 477
As a Texan, all I have to say is I don't remember Craig Biggio getting this much attention on ESPN, and well, everywhere, when he got his 3,000th hit. He had a five-hit game then, too. And on the day he announced he'd be retiring, he hit a grand slam.
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Old 07-12-2011, 10:52 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM
13,296 posts, read 6,861,619 times
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Putting Jeter's 3000 Hits in Perspective - Beyond the Box Score

Quote:

To put a finer point on it, weighted on-base average tells us how productive a player was per plate appearance. When we look at career wOBA we see that Jeter is far from the highest on this list, but he comes in with a .370 which is nothing to sneeze at. And while Jeter's era inflates his wOBA a bit compared to older players, his wOBA is still higher than just about all of his contemporaries on the list.
But his wRC+ (which is based on wOBA and adjusts for ballpark and ERA) is 23rd out of the 28 players with 3000 hits.
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Old 07-13-2011, 03:23 AM
 
Location: Elizabethton, TN
5,892 posts, read 2,409,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cash Register View Post
As a Texan, all I have to say is I don't remember Craig Biggio getting this much attention on ESPN, and well, everywhere, when he got his 3,000th hit. He had a five-hit game then, too. And on the day he announced he'd be retiring, he hit a grand slam.
If Biggio had played on the east coast or for any perennial playoff team, he would have received a lot more coverage. I hope this lack of attention doesn't deprive him of a HoF election.
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Old 07-13-2011, 03:50 AM
 
Location: Elizabethton, TN
5,892 posts, read 2,409,848 times
Reputation: 1872
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
There is little point in reviewing Rose's stats and accomplishments as a player, the argument has never been that his play was insufficient for enshrinement.


The distinction you are attempting to make..."after he was a player" would be meaningful were it not the case that Rose was an active manager at the time of his gambling on baseball. Surely you do not condemn such activity in a player while allowing it in a manager.

He was a great player, but also a shameless self promoter and dishonest man. I respected his play, but found his personality disagreeable, so I was kinda glad when he derailed his reputation by getting caught, and then lying about it repeatedly in public for more than a decade.

"Regardless" of what he did, you wrote, but that is like asking folks to elect John Wilkes Booth to the actors Hall of Fame....regardless of what he may have done when he wasn't performing.
I never liked Rose because I considered him a self-centered individual who should have been more of a team player.

At one point when the Big Red Machine was sputtering due to injuries, some teammates asked Rose to drop down a few spots in the batting order (he had power) until Perez and Bench were healthy again. But Rose refused because he was obsessed with the desire for another 200-hit season and by wanting to become the first singles hitter to earn a hundred thousand dollars a year, a goal he reached not long afterward.

I always believed Rose intended to break Cobb's hit record, even if he had to do it on crutches.
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Old 07-13-2011, 03:09 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC NoVA
1,106 posts, read 1,167,850 times
Reputation: 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by Upton View Post
Yep, the East Coast Sports Programming Network won't shutup about it...of that you can be assured..

And what's with Jeter being known as the captain..?

Other MLB teams don't have captains.

Oh wait, I checked it out...only 3 teams have captains..the Yankees, Red Sox, and White Sox. Figures.. 2 of those clubs think they're better than anybody else, and if you're not convinced of that fact.. no problem, they'll just buy your support..the same way they try to buy titles..
this is so ridiculous.

and what does money have to do with jeter getting 3,000 hits? the guy is a first ballot hall of famer. end of story. i'm a friggin nats fan and i wish the nats would spend more to win more. the mlb is a business. last i checked, business is competition. last i checked, you do everything to win competitions. last i checked, when you win a competition, you get more publicity, fans, and money. the big bucks in pro american sports is excactly why the nhl, mlb, and nba are THE top leagues in the world.
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Old 07-13-2011, 09:06 PM
 
9,485 posts, read 11,823,576 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridgerunner View Post
I never liked Rose because I considered him a self-centered individual who should have been more of a team player.

At one point when the Big Red Machine was sputtering due to injuries, some teammates asked Rose to drop down a few spots in the batting order (he had power) until Perez and Bench were healthy again. But Rose refused because he was obsessed with the desire for another 200-hit season and by wanting to become the first singles hitter to earn a hundred thousand dollars a year, a goal he reached not long afterward.

I always believed Rose intended to break Cobb's hit record, even if he had to do it on crutches.

Let's see. He was a 2nd baseman ... who moved to RF so that the Reds could promote Tommy Helms.

He was in the OF and moved to 3B so that the Reds could move George Foster into the starting lineup.

Sounds like a real selfish player ... not.
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Old 07-14-2011, 09:04 AM
 
Location: Washington state
7,185 posts, read 5,639,723 times
Reputation: 1849
Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticGermanicPride View Post
this is so ridiculous.

and what does money have to do with jeter getting 3,000 hits? the guy is a first ballot hall of famer. end of story. i'm a friggin nats fan and i wish the nats would spend more to win more. the mlb is a business. last i checked, business is competition. last i checked, you do everything to win competitions. last i checked, when you win a competition, you get more publicity, fans, and money. the big bucks in pro american sports is excactly why the nhl, mlb, and nba are THE top leagues in the world.
I never said anything about Jeter's value as a player. My emphasis was on ESPN's continued East Coast bias in their reporting as it relates to his 3000 hit achievement. And I'm hardly alone in questioning the unfairness of MLB's current salary structure...Teams such as the Yankees and Red Sox buy access to the playoffs...I don't think there is much question about that..

Last I checked, your Nats had spent 126 million on a 7 year contract for Jayson Werth. Last I checked, his line was .245/.344/.432..with a WAR of 0.3...not exactly getting equal value for those "big bucks" you want them to continue to spend are they? Perhaps you should rethink that.

Btw, both the NHL and NBA have salary caps, MLB does not...and I question your assertion that they are the top leagues in the world. Maybe just in this country and in their own exclusive sport, but if you want to see a true top league that crosses those boundaries, I would think you'd have to look at soccer and the EPL or La Liga..

Last edited by Upton; 07-14-2011 at 09:15 AM..
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Old 07-14-2011, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
11,236 posts, read 7,322,289 times
Reputation: 8477
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlawrence01 View Post
Let's see. He was a 2nd baseman ... who moved to RF so that the Reds could promote Tommy Helms.

He was in the OF and moved to 3B so that the Reds could move George Foster into the starting lineup.

Sounds like a real selfish player ... not.
That is one of those "Hitler liked dogs and children" style redemptive arguments.

Besides, do you actually know the dynamics of those moves? Did Rose "volunteer" to change positions or was he simply responding to management decisions over which he had no choice?

How do you reconcile yourt image of Rose as selfless when contemplating his keeping the young Eric Davis and Nick Esasky either on the bench or playing out of position, so that Rose could continue to write his own name into the lineup in his quest to break the Cobb record? Clearly at that point Rose no longer hit well enough to justify being a starting firstbaseman in the NL, there was no excuse for his being in the lineup at all other than it supporting his pursuit of individual glory.

Rose selfishly damaged the careers of players who should have been in the lineup, and selfishly damaged the chances of the Reds winning their division, by placing an inferior team on the field...all in the name of his breaking a record.

This is someone you admire?

Perhaps Rose's most dishonorable deed was accepting all the support which flowed from his die hard fans during the years in between his ouster from baseball and his finally confessing that he was guilty all along. Rose devoted those years to smearing Bart Giamatti and Faye Vincent in public, and stringing along a fanbase by lying to them about his innocence.

We may also throw in Rose's conviction for cheating on his taxes, his selling of bogus souveniers (There are probably two dozen people who own the bat used to break Cobb's record, another couple of dozen own the ball, twenty others own the jersey he wore...etc.), the disgraceful way Rose treated his wife and son...

But you know what...before I knew about any of those things, I already couldn't stand Rose simply from watching his self promoting play on the field. Rose invented the "catching dive" which is distinguished from the diving catch by the fact that Rose made the catch first, and then went into a tumbling act to make it look like it was far more difficult than it actually was. How did running to first on a walk help his team in any manner? What it did do was help Rose advance his image as the great hustler.

Apart from his ability to hit baseballs, what is there to admire about Pete Rose? His tribute to Moe haircut?
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