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Old 11-18-2011, 06:06 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
38,744 posts, read 37,338,468 times
Reputation: 28722
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
You are blaming Selig alone for a situation which was the product of a group decision by the ML owners..
Wikipedia is not always perfect, but I accept this at face value:

Bud Selig helped introduce the following changes to Major League Baseball:

Realignment of teams into three divisions per league, and the introduction of playoff wild card teams (1994)
Interleague play (1997)
Two additional franchises: the Arizona Diamondbacks and the Tampa Bay Devil Rays (1998)
Transfer of the Milwaukee Brewers from the American League to the National League (1998)



Every one of those moves took place on Selig's watch, either through his approval, proposal, or instigation. The Commissioner has to power to obstruct moronic and self-destructive actions favored by the owners.
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Old 11-18-2011, 06:28 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM
13,302 posts, read 6,529,760 times
Reputation: 6515
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Wikipedia is not always perfect, but I accept this at face value:

Bud Selig helped introduce the following changes to Major League Baseball:

Realignment of teams into three divisions per league, and the introduction of playoff wild card teams (1994)
Interleague play (1997)
Two additional franchises: the Arizona Diamondbacks and the Tampa Bay Devil Rays (1998)
Transfer of the Milwaukee Brewers from the American League to the National League (1998)



Every one of those moves took place on Selig's watch, either through his approval, proposal, or instigation. The Commissioner has to power to obstruct moronic and self-destructive actions favored by the owners.
1994 was 18 years ago. Baseball still survives.
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Old 11-18-2011, 07:40 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
11,007 posts, read 6,788,886 times
Reputation: 8116
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Wikipedia is not always perfect, but I accept this at face value:

Bud Selig helped introduce the following changes to Major League Baseball:

Realignment of teams into three divisions per league, and the introduction of playoff wild card teams (1994)
Interleague play (1997)
Two additional franchises: the Arizona Diamondbacks and the Tampa Bay Devil Rays (1998)
Transfer of the Milwaukee Brewers from the American League to the National League (1998)



Every one of those moves took place on Selig's watch, either through his approval, proposal, or instigation. The Commissioner has to power to obstruct moronic and self-destructive actions favored by the owners.
That is not the explanation for which I asked....how did Selig capitalizing on a majority decision by the owners, make him an idiot?

And the Commissioner's powers are not what they used to be before Selig. The owners regretted their choice of Bart Giamatti when it became clear to them that he was planning on being more independent than the owner friendly Ueberroth and Kuhn had been. However, Giamatti frustrated them at first by being a popular poet, by being the "People's Commissioner"...in short, functioning as the owners wanterd the public to think he functioned....best interest of baseball...champion of the fans and so forth.

That wasn't what they wanted, they wanted a commissioner who behaved like what Bowie Kuhn was before he was made commissioner....the owner's attorney.

The owners thought that they caught a break when Giamatti died just a few years into the job, but his replacement, Fay Vincent, quickly indictated that he intended to carry on in the Giamatti mode. In 1990, when Vincent banished Steinbrenner "permanently" for hiring a scuzzbag to dig up dirt on Dave Winfield, the owners got the picture. In 1992 he got an 18-9 vote of no confidence from the owners and was forced to resign. The "permanently" banned Steinbrenner was welcomed back.

The next commissioner was....no commissioner at all. Bud Selig was selected as "Executive Council Chairman" and the office of commissioner did not exist until 1998 when it was revived and Selig annointed. His main function is to conduct matters on behalf of the owners and the pretense that he represents the players as well has been dropped. (The Players lost the need for a commissioner to represent their needs when Marvin Miller turned the MLBPA into a superpower.)

So, Selig does not really enjoy the sort of power you believe that he has. His job is going to be predicated upon not pissing off a majority of the owners. He is not in any sort of position to overturn a majority decision by them. If he tried he would be fired.
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Old 11-18-2011, 11:45 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
38,744 posts, read 37,338,468 times
Reputation: 28722
Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok View Post
1994 was 18 years ago. Baseball still survives.
The Black Sox scandal was 92 years ago and baseball still survives. That doesn't make it a good thing, or even a tolerable thing.

The majority of owners finish out of the playoffs every year. So the majority wants a playoff structure that enables more of them to be IN the playoffs every year. That by itself is not an endorsement of the virtue of bloated playoffs.

The majority of the owners will always vote for any measure that will increase their own profits. That by itself is not an endorsement of its virtue.

The majority of owners would happily destroy baseball in the long run, without a moment's hesitation, as long as it increases their profits in the short run. And without a strong and wise commissioner, they would be free to do so. Selig, an owner himself and the first owner to become commissiner, is clearly a sock-puppet to the owners, and sees everything only from their viewpoint.

Last edited by jtur88; 11-19-2011 at 12:04 AM..
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Old 11-19-2011, 03:51 AM
 
Location: Chicago
3,097 posts, read 2,893,566 times
Reputation: 2341
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
It was deemed desirable, revenue wise, to be the team which switched from the AL Central to the NL Central. Selig believed that Milwaukee, having once been an NL town when the Braves were there, was the most logical choice.
what's a four letter word that means "making a fortune for the Brewers"?

It's spelled C-U-B-S

Why wouldn't Milwaukee drool over the prospect of never an empty seat in the house whenever the Cubs play at Miller Park?

The Cub-Cardinal rivalry is way, way more famous and one of the elite among MLB rivalries. That said, Cubs-Brewers is a neighborhood affair, literally a back yard brawl. That's no road trip or hotel for Chicagoland fans heading north on that short drive to Milwaukee.

This move couldn't have been more brilliant for the Brewers.
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Old 11-19-2011, 03:58 AM
 
Location: Chicago
3,097 posts, read 2,893,566 times
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i'm a traditionalist so there is a little sadness in this move for me.

Baseball was built on the rivalry between NL and AL, two separate leagues; once without interleague play.

I believe most fans don't even know that neither the National nor the American Leagues even exist legally anymore. They were dissolved a decade or so back, thus becoming (based on the way we use the word) leagues-in-name-only. this was never publicized (although hardly kept a secret) because there was no advantage to getting fans to think that the NL and AL no longer had their own meaning and existence.

That's the reason why the Brewers were able to move in one direction and the Astros another. These moves are no different than Seattle's move from AFC to NFC.

That's because the structure of MLB and NFL are the same. Both MLB and NFL are legal entities with internal divides......NL and AL, NFC and AFC, respectively.
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Old 11-19-2011, 10:38 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
38,744 posts, read 37,338,468 times
Reputation: 28722
Quote:
Originally Posted by edsg25 View Post
what's a four letter word that means "making a fortune for the Brewers"?

It's spelled C-U-B-S

Why wouldn't Milwaukee drool over the prospect of never an empty seat in the house whenever the Cubs play at Miller Park?

The Cub-Cardinal rivalry is way, way more famous and one of the elite among MLB rivalries. .
How come County Stadium didn't fill up when the White Sox played the Brewers? Beacuse the media didn't tell anybody that it was a rivalry. In 1998 there were plenty of empty seats in Milwaukee when the NL Brewers played the Cubs, and in fact, their two top attendance dates were against St. Louis.

The media can make a rivalry out of anything. The Cubs-Cardinals rivalry is purely a figment of marketing imagination, and fans will do whatever the media tells them to do.

From World War Two to 2000, there were only two seasons in which the Cubs and Cardinals were both contenders. What kind of a rivalry is that? In the 50s, I saw Cubs-Cards games in both ballparks. Attendance was ho-hum, great tickets available a half hour before game time. There was no rivalry.

1960, Cubs vs. Cardinals, 15,000 average at both sites.
1980, 17,000 average at both sites, even after the Brock trade. Low at Chicago, 2,059, Low at St Louis 6,307. Some rivalry!

Yes, the Cubs drew better than most teams against the 50's Milwaukee Braves, but only because Wisconsin was all Cubs fans before the Braves came, and some still were. Not because there was any "rivalry---the Cubs finished in last place every year..

By your argument, it would be "good for baseball" if the Phillies moved to the American league, to boost attendance when they play the Yankees and Orioles. You can't just switch teams around in order to invent so-called rivalries. Wait---yes you can, and that's what they are doing.

All baseball has to do is put a good product on the field, stop shooting itself in the foot (with a good commissioner), and stop badmouthing itself. Baseball is the only sport that has a tradition that can be used as an asset, and they are hell-bent on destroying all the remains of that.

Last edited by jtur88; 11-19-2011 at 10:50 AM..
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