U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Baseball
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-17-2012, 07:19 AM
 
Location: Bella Vista, Ark
72,072 posts, read 83,735,637 times
Reputation: 41839

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by tgbwc View Post
I agree. I never have understood this either. "God Bless America" is no different than "America the Beautiful" or "Yankee Doodle Dandy". It's a patriotic song, but not one where people need to remove their hats and stand at attention. Chat it up, eat your hotdog, use the restroom if you need to. It's not the National Anthem.
That part I agree with, I just have trouble with those who think we shouldn't even have it sang or played. I do not think we need to stand but I do think we need to show respect and be still. BTW, it is a little different than "Yankee Doodle"
Nita
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-17-2012, 07:29 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,134 posts, read 18,604,845 times
Reputation: 18733
Quote:
Originally Posted by LongtimeBravesFan View Post
I think most tickets have something on the back that says they can kick you out for any reason.
They can print whatever they wish on the back of a ticket, but they are still subject to the prevailing Federal and state laws regarding what they can and cannot do. It would be like a storekeeper putting up a sign "Shoplifters Will Be Shot" and expecting to be able to gun down suspects without consequence.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-17-2012, 02:12 PM
 
1,862 posts, read 3,007,139 times
Reputation: 2109
You're right--it's called 'boilerplate' and is basically worthless. Like when a parking garage prints on the ticket they aren't responsible for any damage/losses to your vehicle. They can print that all they want, but they can and will get sued. And the judge can decide against them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
They can print whatever they wish on the back of a ticket, but they are still subject to the prevailing Federal and state laws regarding what they can and cannot do. It would be like a storekeeper putting up a sign "Shoplifters Will Be Shot" and expecting to be able to gun down suspects without consequence.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2012, 07:33 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn
40,056 posts, read 30,553,733 times
Reputation: 10490
Suppose everyone else stood up to sing "God Bless America," but you started belting out "Born to Run." Could you be ejected for that, or would your claim that the Constitution guarantees freedom of speech save you in court?

("Born to Run" at a baseball game...pun unintentional, I assure you!)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2012, 12:41 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,336,032 times
Reputation: 36087
Quote:
Originally Posted by nmnita View Post
That part I agree with, I just have trouble with those who think we shouldn't even have it sang or played. I do not think we need to stand but I do think we need to show respect and be still. BTW, it is a little different than "Yankee Doodle"
Nita

But there is already the national anthem before the game. What do you consider to be the optimum number of 2-3 minute observances of religion/patriotism at every single game? Why is it so important or necessary to have even one, except that it has become a tradition? Why has baseball become a unique venue for these phony displays of gloating about America's imagined superiority?

There isn't even a national anthem before most public performances such as movies or concerts or plays. But it just wouldn't be a Chicago Black Hawks game without the crowd roaring their cheers and encouragement throughout the entire national anthem, a tradition at the NHL games. But that is not so much a tribute to the USA, but to the acoustics in the old Chicago Stadium.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Teqye_9VIYk
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2012, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn
40,056 posts, read 30,553,733 times
Reputation: 10490
Just out of curiosity...baseball pre-dates "The Star Spangled Banner" as our National Anthem by quite a few years. It wasn't declared our National Anthem until 1931. What did they do at baseball games before then?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2012, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,134 posts, read 18,604,845 times
Reputation: 18733
The tradition of playing "The Star Spangled Banner" before ballgames began as a response to public grumbling about how some of the athletes, young men in prime physical condition, were continuing to play baseball rather than volunteer for the army in WW I. (The draft would get many of them later.) To demonstrate that MLB was 100% behind crushing the Kaiser, an array of ceremonies were instituted, including having the team members march around the stadium in military formation, their bats on their shoulders as if they were rifles. "The Star Spangled Banner" was not yet our National Anthem at this point, that would not come until a 1931 act of Congress. It was a popular patriotic air and was included in the ceremonies at the ballparks as just one more aspect of the loyalist ceremonies. The reason that The Star Spangled Banner was chosen was rather simple...it was President Woodrow Wilson's favorite among all patriotic songs. He had ordered it played at army and navy ceremonies, so it was starting to take on an official aura, even if it lacked a legal one at that point.

When the war was over and there was no more pressure on MLB to establish its martial patriotism on a daily basis, the fuss and bother of all the ceremony stuff was stopped, but to avoid being charged with having lost its nationalistic ardor, the one thing retained was the singing of the Star Spangled Banner.

After 1931, when the song was made into the official national Anthem, MLB lost any option it had of dropping the singing of the song because now it would look like they were disrespecting the National Anthem. The tradition spread as other sports came into being and now it is so well established that many people probably believe that it is a law that no sporting event may commence without the playing/singing of the song.

For clarification's sake...no sport, professional or amatuer, is subject to any law which requires the performance of the Anthem at events.

By Federal Statute 36 U.S.C. § 301, the law which covers all the rules associated with patriotic ceremony, when the Anthem is played with a simultaneous display of the flag, folks are supposed to stand, remove their headgear, and place their right hand over their hearts for the duration of the song. However, Congress neglected to add any provisions for enforcing this idea, no penalties of any sort are listed for failure to comply.

There have been a few cases brought before the courts involving refusals to stand and observe the ceremony, but the courts have ruled that first amendment considerations trump all else and no one has ever suffered any legal consequences stemming from such refusals. Most famously the courts ruled that Jehovah Witnesses had a right to refuse to participate and that decision has been the guide for all others.

So, the prevailing legal status is a vague one...you are required by law to participate, but there are no penalties for not participating. If a ballclub ejected a patron for refusing to stand for the Anthem, it would result in a first amendment controversy, subject to whatever rulings today's courts decided to make. In the most recent similar case, one involving madatory participation in a school recitations of the Pledge of Allegiance, the Supreme Court came down on the side of the first amendment and no one is legally required to particpate in the pledge chanting.

"God Bless America" of course enjoys no legal support at all, it is just a song. There are no laws associated with mandatory behavior while it is being performed. A ballclub which tried to impose participation in a God Bless America ceremony would find itself on legal quicksand, bumping up against the first amendment and probably leaving itself open for a civil rights violation lawsuit.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2012, 06:01 PM
 
Location: Hometown of Jason Witten
5,985 posts, read 3,739,755 times
Reputation: 1915
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
But there is already the national anthem before the game. What do you consider to be the optimum number of 2-3 minute observances of religion/patriotism at every single game? Why is it so important or necessary to have even one, except that it has become a tradition? Why has baseball become a unique venue for these phony displays of gloating about America's imagined superiority?]
I propose a compromise solution that would give equal consideration to those who despise God and America. Prior to the game there could be a ceremonial flag-burning in the outfield, accompanied by Gershwin's "It Ain't Necessarily So."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2012, 06:42 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,134 posts, read 18,604,845 times
Reputation: 18733
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridgerunner View Post
I propose a compromise solution that would give equal consideration to those who despise God and America. Prior to the game there could be a ceremonial flag-burning in the outfield, accompanied by Gershwin's "It Ain't Necessarily So."
I realize that the above is satirical, but for the record, my objections to the patriotic claptrap at ballgames is based on my personal distaste for formal ceremony of any kind, as well the idea that attending a sporting event demands that the patrons put on a display of their loyalties. If attending an event which is actually associated with a national cause of some sort, such as a military memorial, the funeral of a national hero, the dedication of a monument..like that...I have no problems at all with the presentation of the anthem or flag, and the requirement to show respect for it by proper behavior.

But a ballgame? I can't attend a sporting entertainment event without having to endure these serial tests of national fidelity? I've no inclination to burn a US flag, nor would I think to try and impose my cosmic views of the universe on any of the other fans. I simply refuse to take any aspect of a sporting event all that seriously, and that includes mandatory displays of mass patriotism and the collective singing of songs affirming theories about dieties to which I do not subscribe.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-19-2012, 01:04 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,336,032 times
Reputation: 36087
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridgerunner View Post
I propose a compromise solution that would give equal consideration to those who despise God and America. Prior to the game there could be a ceremonial flag-burning in the outfield, accompanied by Gershwin's "It Ain't Necessarily So."
More black-and-whitism masquerading as rational discussion. If you're not a radical extremist of one position, you must by definition to a radical extremist in the opposite.

Completely off the table is any consideration of a "compromise" with those who are not radical extremists, since they do not exist in your world.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Baseball
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top